Please look at the last list Bryant T8't with. It only plays 10 dead cards for Diminishing returns. And lands are not always dead off Returns because sometimes you still get to play a land.Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
I agree with Nightshade partly because people shouldn't write so aggressive and 6-8 creatures is indeed an interesting proposal although I still don't like the Bob. It might not be good but at-least it's not as bad as Living wish. I haven's tested it but to me, 4 Chant 0-2 Xantid swarm, 0 Bob and 0 Abayence seems best.
@ Nightshade: please do not stop posting just because some people don't post civil and do not understand logic. I still remember you proposed Mystical tutor and Chant and ultimately it was a good suggestion, at-least the Chant part. But people just reacted aggressive because Bryant didn't agree and they didn't think for themselves.
I have tested 4 Dark Confidant 4 Swarm in the maindeck back when I ran Confidant in the sideboard before he was cut. I personally believe 8 cards that are dead after a Diminishing Returns aren't worth the hassle. You can cast Chants and Abeyances after a returns to help or to empty your hand for Infernal. Xantid is currently bad because the metagame shift against him, he never lives. I want my protection to win me the game, and win me the game now. Not next turn. Now people please quit ruining the thread.
So right now you are not runnung 8 dead cards off Diminishing returns and somehow Chant and Abayence (ok, it draws a card but is harder to cast than Bob) are easier to cast for hellbent than Swarm and Bob?
Xantid was fine when my budget was suppressed, but now that I have my Chants, I use those. I've used Chant aggressively against combo decks. Throwing a Chant mid-combo for Belcher caused a concede. Also using it to stop an aggro deck from playing the early beats was useful.
Chant vs Swarm is hardly an arguement. Wait a turn for your protection, or have one less mana for the "combo now".
Abeyance is very similar to Chant. It offers about the same protection but is 1 colorless mana more, making it occasionally hard to cast in the first couple of turns(especially with 15 lands in the deck). Confidant helps the draws going, giving you more mana sources(hopefully and probably).
After more testing with the deck, I trimmed out Warrens to a single copy. As of right now, I have 1 Abeyance(bidding on more...). So the last 2 slots I'm playing around with.
@Gix - I tried the Tutor...doesn't work so good without Cabal Ritual. Also, I was goofing around with Vintage decks and realized that it basically came from PitchLong and grabbed Yawgmoth's Will or some other "win now" card. that meant I could easily make extra storm out of nothing and win. We can't quite do that :(
What are you guys cutting for ponders and how many are you running. So far i've tested 2 and 3 main and it worked out well either way. Do you think they might be worth running as a 4-of.
These are the debatable slots i am running: 3 SSG, 2 Ponder 3 Cabal ritual, 3 Mox, 3 Etw, 4 Chant, 1 Infernal contract. (0 Abayence,Plunge,Swarm,Bob)
I don't think that Mox is a debatable slot. It's a 4-of in almost every list. I have Ponder in for the Abeyances I don't have yet. I suppose SSG could be viewed as unneeded, but I like mine too much. At this point Chant is also too important to give up. No protection means no safe combo.
Fairly solid results so far with this list,
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Dark Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Hull Breach
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Leyline of the Void (totally a metagame call ATM)
When you're using Orim's Chant, I think it's important to replace the 1 drop left by Xantid Swarm with another card. Ponder really excels at either setting up Chant + Tendrils or finding an Empty the Warrens for your second turn. Routinely hitting your second or third land is also a godsend, because it sets up Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns with enough colored mana to throw an Orim's Chant at them on the same turn or Burning Wish for Infernal Contract and cast it with out wasting acceleration.
I really haven't been happy with cutting/sbing 2 Empty the Warrens for Abeyance, because my Diminishing Returns have been abysmal with only 2 win conditions in the deck, and people stop countering your Dark Rituals when there isn't a reasonable expectation of seeing an Empty the Warrens behind it. Abeyance is just a fucking clunky ass card, I find myself casting it and praying my opponent will counter it or just cycling it on their upkeep to keep them off of Meddling Mage and Counterbalance more than I find myself using it to protect the combo.
I think Ponder is everything we wanted Plunge to be. I'm still really stuck on the MD Xantid Swarm, 3 MD Diminishing Returns, Tinder Wall and SB Pyroblast configuration, but if you're set on playing Orim's Chant, I think Ponder is the way to go.
I really haven't enjoyed playing Bryant's list, using Orim's Chant and then using MD Dark Confidant is a little counter intuitive to me, because it doesn't deal with the Swords to Plowshares problem, and with out 3 Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns is a really lackluster card. It's by no means bad once you get the hang of it, because it's really all about inevitability off of Dark Confidant, but it feels like an entirely different deck to me sometimes.
I don't think I'm going to play Ponder since I added Dark Confidant. Confidant is taking up the slots where ponder would be. It's either or not both.
Just a random observation on that list: there seems to be a lack of synergy between Brainstorm/Ponder and Glimmervoid. I'd imagine that if you're playing set-up spells off your lands, you're going to want them to stick around. Isn't there a better option?
Also, it's Rite of Flame, not Right of Flame.
It's not necessarily either/or, you can MD Ponder and SB Dark Confidant with a "Man Plan" of - Ponder and -Simian Spirit Guide for + Dark Confidant and + Xantid Swarm. That's my preferred SB configuration when every one isn't dry humping Dredge.
@ B4ron
Well, Undiscovered Paradise is terrible with 8 cantrips, so it's either Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel. Glimmervoid is occasionally useful, because you can play Glimmervoid and then cast Brainstorm/Ponder and get them to counter it, at which point you play an artifact and they "wasted" a counter, or you play Glimmervoid, play an artifact and then get them to counter counter it, at which point you play another artifact and they "wasted" a counter or you can play an artifact first, get them to counter it and play a City of Brass at which point they "wasted" a counter or you just play an artifact first and then play a Glimmervoid and you're golden.
You either cost yourself a storm, or you cost yourself 3+ life, you can play Devil's Advocate all you want.
As an aside, I think it's important to note that playing a Lion's Eye Diamond before you play anything else is a powerful tactic IRL. Game 1 on the play, People will put you on Dredge and Force of Will the "outlet/accelerant" and let their guard down against Burning Wish->Bomb. The environment has turned Lion's Eye Diamond into a pseudo Dark Ritual (followed by SSG and ETW), where the opponent's will counter it out of fear of what it could lead to. You can also do it on the draw if you have an SSG to protect you from Daze, at which point you've bought yourself another turn against Meddling Mage and Counterbalance. I've even gone so far as to back my deck with Ichorid slips as an inside joke, and ironically it started working for me even more.
The WTF looks alone are well worth it.
I like ponder over confidant, but I don't necessarily like it as a 4-of. The big problem I have with confidant is that it is quite slow. It takes 3 turns for it to do more than night's whisper. I haven't had time to test thoroughly, but ponder seems very good main. It is in plunges slot after all and it seems a lot better than plunge.
Confidant is awesome.
-It makes Black mana when pitched to Mox.
-It gives you a way of approaching the game in a much slower fashion, in which you bait counters out and still apply pressure.
-If it attacks and connects, it's a 1 storm less for your future Tendrils.
-It can serve as a blocker if you're only using it to set-up.
I dont see why you would not even run any Confidants at all. I was an advocate of Confidant, since, forever.
Also, Ponder is good, but in place of Confidant, it can only do these things better than Confidant;
-It can dig, but Ponder is a card that sets-up your next turn as well, just not your current turn. This is why I believe you should not run Ponder in Storm decks, because it doesnt give you a strong long-term effect which can apply lot's of pressure towards the opponent. I like Confidant because it applies pressure.
Night's Whisper is good too, but I dislike it because it needs to chain for it to do something against Control. Confidant doesnt chain. In fact, it doesnt need to chain, because each card it sees isnt a blank or a bad cantrip that interferes with the combo (not referring to Brainstorm). Imagine chaining Night's Whisper now... now imagine 2 Confidants on the board. I dont even need to combo quickly, it's a match already sealed.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Yes, we all know when Dark Confidant is on the board the deck is inevitable, but that doesn't change the fact that Dark Confidant is a target for the opponent's spot removal. If you MD Ponder and you SB Dark Confidant, you're min/maxing your dead card advantage, so as I said before, it's not an either or argument. I think comparing Dark Confidant to Ponder is like comparing Burning Wish to Brainstorm, the first two are the deck's threats and the second two are the deck's set up cards.
I love Night Whispers in storm combo, but TES has a mana hole that it needs to address, and Ponder is the card that addresses that mana hole. Also, I think you're wrong when you say that Ponder (or are you talking specifically about Night Whispers in the second paragraph?) interferes with the combo, because Ponder is AMAZING during the combo turn. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've cast a Diminishing Returns with U floating, drew a hand with Brainstorm/Ponder and then cantripped into a win condition. I think that play is a HUGE selling point of Ponder over anything else. Imprinting for blue mana to set up Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns is also a lot better than imprinting for black mana, IMO.
Is there a possibility of both? I mean, people keep going on about how Abeynace costs 2, so why not cut it and run 2 Ponder?
Confidants main disadvantage is the inconsistency that comes with him. You will get lots of hands that look like this... Land, lotus petal, chant, dark confidant, LED, infernal tutor, infernal tutor. In this situation you can go for a turn one confidant and if it sticks you win, but if not your probably screwed. Ponder has a huge advantage because it only costs one. Being able to imprint it onto a chrome mox is quite nice also.
Basically confidant doesn't seem to add any consistency and that is what we are looking for. Something like ponder gives you a great tool for finding cards you need. Not running confidant or swarms will also mean your opponent now has a bunch of dead cards.
Anyway I think both confidant and ponder are viable options. It just depends on your style of play and your meta. I have way too much creature removal in my area to really use confidant so I can't wait for ponder to become legal.
This can be true. My play style and approach towards the deck is to gain an edge over the opponent.
I do like it how Ponder makes every match-up slightly better, but Confidant in a few. But Confidant is still decent in those dead match ups, but against those dead match-ups, I should be winning right there anyways.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I don't see a reason why you would want to play less than 4 Ponder, Ponder, and subsequently Brainstorm, get better with each additional Ponder in the deck.
Because having multiple ponders/brainsorms slows you down?
Not really, if you have the nuts, you have the nuts. What the deck needs is more consistency. If you're aim is to go off on the first turn every time, then you're better off playing Belcher.
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