[ATW] Landstill

[Tacosnape]

Jotun Grunt in Landstill is a terrible idea. Why on earth would you run a kill condition that can almost never go the distance on his own?

[diffy]

Jotun Grunt in Landstill is a terrible idea. Why on earth would you run a kill condition that can almost never go the distance on his own?

He might very possibly be a terrible idea, he was just the best for the slot that I could think of. Sure there're other things like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice but those are just much slower than Jotun Grunt and can't be used like him in the mid- to early-game. There are also other fast(er) winconditions like Serendib Efreet, Serra Avenger or Lightning Angel but those aren't as multi-purpose as Jotun Grunt: they do only beat while Jotun Grunt still is some sort of disruption.
Also, he doesn't have to go the distance by himself: the Uwr list plays out a lot more aggressive than your average list as you have way more winconditions (manlands) and reach in the form of burn.
Remember: the entire list was just like an exercice/brainstorm to see if a more aggressive Landstill list is feasible and/or viable.

I don't really know as of now. As I have way too much free time, I'm actually going to test that list and come back to people when I've collected some data.

Edit: I've never actually had any problems to sustain Jotun Grunt for about 4+ turns. He's fine for the offensive, he just makes a pretty lousy blocker.

If I was going to play RWU Landstill i'd take out bolt and put in helix frankly. And id put in helix as a 4 of. To me the one more mana it may cost you is more then worth 6 point life swings.

The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it.

Edit: On a random note - wouldn't black be the better splash-color for a more aggressive Landstill? You'd get to replace the somewhat anti-synergestic Swords to Plowshares with Ghastly Demises and Smothers and still have something to kill those Dark Confidants. You could then also replace the Jotun Grunts with something like Tombstalker or Shriekmaw.

[Mister Agent]

He might very possibly be a terrible idea, he was just the best for the slot that I could think of. Sure there're other things like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice but those are just much slower than Jotun Grunt and can't be used like him in the mid- to early-game. There are also other fast(er) winconditions like Serendib Efreet, Serra Avenger or Lightning Angel but those aren't as multi-purpose as Jotun Grunt: they do only beat while Jotun Grunt still is some sort of disruption.
Also, he doesn't have to go the distance by himself: the Uwr list plays out a lot more aggressive than your average list as you have way more winconditions (manlands) and reach in the form of burn.

I don't really know as of now. As I have way too much free time, I'm actually going to test that list and come back to people when I've collected some data.



The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it.

Edit: On a random note - wouldn't black be the better splash-color for a more aggressive Landstill? You'd get to replace the somewhat anti-synergestic Swords to Plowshares with Ghastly Demises and Smothers and still have something to kill those Dark Confidants. You could then also replace the Jotun Grunts with something like Tombstalker or Shriekmaw.

Yeah for awhile now I thought of working on RBU landstill with burning wish. I think disk with other instanteous removal will work fine especially with academy ruins. Or you could even run intuition with shriekmaw, tombstalker, and maybe volrath's stronghold. Yes clemens you got me hooked on intuition as well thanks to you. ;)

[thefreakaccident]

Ubr landstill?

lands//24
2 mutavault
4 mishra's factory
4 underground sea
4 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 faerie conclave
1 swamp
1 island

creatures//4
2 tomb stalker
2 skreakmaw

spells//32
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
3 smother
3 nevynrall's disk
3 fact or fiction


sideboard//
4 extirpate
3 REB
2 BEB
4 pyroclasm
2 pithing needle


This is what I think it would look like, and what I will be testing.

[Mister Agent]

Ubr landstill?

lands//24
2 mutavault
4 mishra's factory
4 underground sea
4 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 faerie conclave
1 swamp
1 island

creatures//4
2 tomb stalker
2 skreakmaw

spells//32
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
3 smother
3 nevynrall's disk
3 fact or fiction


sideboard//
4 extirpate
3 REB
2 BEB
4 pyroclasm
2 pithing needle


This is what I think it would look like, and what I will be testing.

I think since your not playing the versatile pernicious deed I think RBU landstill should go a step further and run a more utility type of build. Like with intuition or something in that nature to make up for the loss of pernicious deeds.

[Tosh]

In UBr, how much does the red actually add? Looking at the list (in the main) you get Bolt and Fire/Ice. Unless you get a Burning Wish thing going (which is very powerful) I don't think red adds enough to warrant inclusion.

IMO there's much better things in other colors (G: Deed, W: Swords) or doing 2 color and cutting the third entirely.

[mossivo1986]

"The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it."

But thats been the entire argument on why not to play Red splash landstill in the first place. So given the situation I was giving you the best option outside of a 1 drop spell that at most is a 3 point life swing. For two mana "outside of early challice" you basicly can have the one thing that landstill always wants. 2-1 burn a mishra's, gain 3 life. Bam. The zoo aggro decks survive off of the helix life they gain during games and I believe 19 of their land deals them some kind of damage. Wheres we run fetches and get luxury of everything, so why not take advantage of it. And yes this spell does have a chance still at killing goyf very early. If you were that concerened with goyf/ thresh decks you'd run humility and just say "Fu"

[diffy]

In UBr, how much does the red actually add? Looking at the list (in the main) you get Bolt and Fire/Ice. Unless you get a Burning Wish thing going (which is very powerful) I don't think red adds enough to warrant inclusion.

IMO there's much better things in other colors (G: Deed, W: Swords) or doing 2 color and cutting the third entirely.

You have to keep in mind that the last few posts are about creating a more aggressive Landstill (sort of like the Ur Landstill of the old days) where red does add quite a lot: flexible removal that can double as lategame reach.

If you're looking for a more traditional, controlish Landstill build, red obviously isn't that good a choice because it has some problems with handling bigger guys which makes it quite mediocre for removal while not being that hawt for finishers either. Burning Wish is a strong tool, but I've never felt that it fetches anything more than Cunning Wish which is agreedly more expensive but therefore more flexible (Instant - just like the things it searches) and pitches to Force (Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor or Extirpate is the wincondition people are looking for).

But thats been the entire argument on why not to play Red splash landstill in the first place. So given the situation I was giving you the best option outside of a 1 drop spell that at most is a 3 point life swing. For two mana "outside of early challice" you basicly can have the one thing that landstill always wants.

I was just comparing Helix to Lightning Bolt: the lifegain just isn't worth the additional mana.

And yes this spell does have a chance still at killing goyf very early. If you were that concerened with goyf/ thresh decks you'd run humility and just say "Fu"

Humility has no real synergy with the additional beaters - and with your aggressive strategy: Humility is a pure control card and awesome at its job but it doesn't really fit into the more tempo-orientated builds I was talking about lateley as it's pretty expensive and colorintensive. I once played a UWr build with Humility, X-Pyroclasms (Rolling Earthquake and such) and Decree of Justice algonside burn. It was horrible because the parts just don't synergise well: Humility and Decree of Justice want for a long game - burn does not as it gets weaker at controling stuff the longer the game goes as more and tougher threats come onto the screen.

[Tosh]

more aggressive Landstill (sort of like the Ur Landstill of the old days)

Alright, I see where you're going. I don't think I've seen Chain Lightning suggested (looked ~2 pgs back) but it's pretty good and it allow you to occasionally straight up burn people out. Maverick676 has a pretty good UR Landstill list that I will try and get him to post. It is strongly based on the old Ur Landstill that you're talking about.

[Adan]

Alright, I see where you're going. I don't think I've seen Chain Lightning suggested (looked ~2 pgs back) but it's pretty good and it allow you to occasionally straight up burn people out. Maverick676 has a pretty good UR Landstill list that I will try and get him to post. It is strongly based on the old Ur Landstill that you're talking about.

A good UR list? With Chain Lightning?! Good joke.

Here's my list:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [10E] Faerie Conclave
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [LRW] Mountain (1)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Spells
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance

Tempo-oriented. That's why Disrupting Shoal is fit in, but you might exchange them with Counterspells. Repeal proved to be good. It generates a huge speedadvantage and indirectly is a solution against...everything? Even Tarmogoyf isn't such a thread if you pack in EE.
But it really requires some practice, just like UWb Landstill. It also won't forgive you misplays and requires you to think twice how you use your resources. The Counterbalance-engine comes in against Threshold or other decks with a low manacurve.

Thirst for Knowledge has also a versatile use: It either acts as CA or CQ generator. It turns dead Disks/SDTs into CA and sometimes it simply generates CQ by turning useless lands which you can recurr with Crucible anyways into useful cards. So it can also act as a kind of Brainstorm, that's why i really like it. But this also means that you have to play it well, just like brainstorm. Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge both are incedily powerful cards if you know how to play them correctly.

But I just wanted to show you my list and see whether Maverick676's list can beat it.

MAYBE it can be good again since it can beat Aggrocontrol (***** for example) quite easily and has got the best Goblin matchup of all Landstill variants IMO (maybe DiF's Landstill is also strong due to Humility and Plague -> t3h n4sty c0mb0 against Gobs).

[b4r0n]

This may seem like a janky idea, but has anyone tried Pulse of the Forge in the more aggressive U/R versions? A couple months ago I played against a Landstill deck that ran Pulse, and it worked surprisingly well; since Landstill tends to stabilize at a relatively low life total, Pulse served as a great finisher. I got burned out twice for about 12-16 life.

[Nihil Credo]

Burn that cannot target creatures is probably too unreliable to see maindeck play. Maybe it could be used as a Cunning Wish target, although at that point I guess Volcanic Geyser or Urza's Rage would probably work better.

[Adan]

Burn that cannot target creatures is probably too unreliable to see maindeck play. Maybe it could be used as a Cunning Wish target, although at that point I guess Volcanic Geyser or Urza's Rage would probably work better.

Pulse of the Forge requires double-red. It's everything else, but not a aggressive card. Chain Lightning also isn't because of Sorcery-speed which makes him clunky.

The question is, how you want to use Cunning Wish in UR Landstill (it doesn't seem to be a bad idea, we could run it in the Thirst for Knowledge-slot!), but I yet don't have an idea what you want to run in a wishboard.

Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock seem to be fine, as well as the access to BEBs preboard. Starstorm also seems to be cool. Smash is also possible. Boil and Flashfires could also be cool (Boil being situational!). But we lack Enchantment and Graveyard removal...

kimberley (long time ago, loooong time ago!) once testes Burnind Wishes for Pyroclasm, Cave-In and Rolling Earthquake, but I don't like Sorceries since we already run Faerie Conclaves, Tops and often mainphase Brainstorms.

And well, with Urza's Rage, Nihil is hereby unearthing the most nostalgic tech imo.

The question is whether this kind of landstill variant is controlish enough to stall around like DiF's CunningLandstill to abuse masses of mana for an EOT Wish for the "I win"-card. it wasn't a problem in Vintage where you could run 4 Mana Drains and Sol Ring and such, but in Legacy... Who knows?

@ the UWR Landstill debate: I already said it in the past and I won#ät change my opinion about that, but UWR Landstill is the worst color-combination you can make ever. Swords to Plowshares makes burn totally redundant. And red offers you like...nothing else than burn. That is a contradictory concept that can never work well, since you also have a worse manabase.

[b4r0n]

Pulse of the Forge requires double-red.

I don't think that's too much of a problem by the time you plan on casting it. But it's true that the double red does limit it to a certain extent. However, on the other hand, it's pretty ridiculous under a Blood Moon, giving you alternate with that doesn't rely on manlands.

Burn that cannot target creatures is probably too unreliable to see maindeck play. Maybe it could be used as a Cunning Wish target, although at that point I guess Volcanic Geyser or Urza's Rage would probably work better.

I was looking at Pulse as more of a finisher than as removal. But I suppose you're right. Just thought I'd mention it as a possible card to consider if you're playing U/R.

[Tacosnape]

...

Are we seriously discussing Pulse of the Forge?

Burn in Landstill is removal first and kill second. Pulse is an awful idea to maindeck just for the Blood Moon argument, and if you can cast a Cunning Wish under a Blood Moon for it, just get a Blue Elemental Blast and kill the Blood Moon. Or Repeal it, if you're running it, as some R-builds do. Or Disk it. Or Seal of Cleansing the bitch.

What's more, Pulse kill under Blood Moon is hard to make work unless you manaburn yourself to ensure you get your Pulse back. If someone moonlocks you and they see or suspect Pulse, they can just be smart and amass a couple threats (Every deck packing Blood Moon in this format runs threats that hit for more than Pulse hits, by the way) and take you from the teens to 0 in one swing. And if you burn your way down to try a multiple Pulse shot, you're still running risks of being killed before you can pull it off.

I've never figured out what it is about the color red that makes people want to play subpar janky cards. Pulse of the Forge is a ridiculously bad idea. Next option.

[Adan]

I don't think that's too much of a problem by the time you plan on casting it.

With 5 red manasources total, it is.

edit: OMG, I just wrote 7 words and Taco was still faster with a detailed argumentation. Is he human?

But running Red doesn't mean you have janky cards, it just means that you have the best Landstill variant against Goblins and a better matchup against Solidarity. Yes, this means that UR may be out-dated nowadays, but it can still be competitive since it's the more aggressive controldeck vs. control-mirrors. I would also say that UR Landstill won't lose against MUC than other Landstill variants where Back to Basics are like GG. Repeal is just t3h r0XX0rz.

But I think MUC is a relaxed matchup. Everything MUC does except Morphling and Back to Basics doesn't matter.

Over all, thank you for being the truth and sparing me a lot of writing work, Taco.

[raharu]

If you want an agressive control deck, why are you playing red (Lightning Bolt) instead of green ('Goyf)? So, the logical conclusion is to drop red for green. Then you want more agressive cards, so you cut down the landcount for threats, and you get thresh, moar oar less :]

On a serious note (i.e. ^^SARCASM^^), I think the optimal agressive Landstill deck would look like this (DISCLAIMER: 5 minute list follows):

lands: 24
4 Factory
2 Conclave
18 other

Sweepers: 4
Wrath of God x4

Win contidions: 6 (12)
(Facroty + conclave x6)
Tarmogoyf x4
Hoofprints of the Stag x2

Countermagic: 7
Counterbalance/ Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 13
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Standstill x4
Thirst for Knowledge x2

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Other: 2
Crucible of Worlds x2

12 win-conditions, most of which are agressive (Tarmogoyf, Conclave) or tuned by the rest of the deck to be agressive (Hoofprints + TfK, Standstill, Brainstorm, SDT), but it still has sweep, countermagic, draw, and all the thngs that give the deck the ability to maintain in the long game after other decks are exausted.

Thoughts?

[Bardo]

To add to the body of knowledge in this thread, the rest of my article on Landstill ran on StarCityGames today.

Part 1
Part 2

Here's my current U/b/g list. Card choice and design ideas detailed in Part 2 of the article series.

“Mostly Monoblue Control” ("MMUC")
“The Vorosh Deck”
“U/g/b Landstill”
by Bardo


Card Drawing
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Stack Control
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

Board Control
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

Big Green Monsters
4 Tarmogoyf

Land
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

[Adan]

I think the optimal agressive Landstill deck would look like this (DISCLAIMER: 5 minute list follows):

...

Wrath of God x4

...

Tarmogoyf x4
Hoofprints of the Stag x2

...

Counterbalance x3

...

Sensei's Divining Top x3

...

Swords to Plowshares x4

Thoughts?

Go... home...

This isn't even close to aggressive. Tarmogoyf sucks in the maindeck, i still don't understand why everyone is playing him. Humility > Tarmogoyf, always always always! The same is true for Bardo's list. if you really want to play some spoilers, then PLEASE play Tombstalkers as he at least got EVASION and NEVER get's blown up by your own Pernicious Deed. Tombstalker is also the most potential finisher of all creature-cards as he is as flexible as Goyf and can be fueled by cards like Fact or Fiction and Life from the Loam.

In comparison to Tobstalker, tarmogoyf is IMO a shabby fragile vanilla beater.

But, to quote Clemens: "Humility > d4t sh1t!"

Hoofprints is also a good card, yes, but it's still slow as hell.

And Counterbalance is also a reactive engine, far from being aggressive, that's why I just run it in the Sideboard to lock down Thresh and having a substitute for Meddling Mages against combo and Loam-supporting decks.

Swords to Plowshares also gives the opponent some HP, thus it's also not aggressive.

UR is - in my opinion - the only variant that can switch it's role into an aggrocontrol-deck, with early manland beat without neglecting the counterbackup (Force and D.Shoal as freespells) and less dead cards (removal can be abused as killcondition).
The disadvantage of Forces and Shoal is compensated by Standstills and SB Counterbalance, as well as by appropriate plays.

Shoal is comparable to Chrome Mox in Baseruption and/or ayB.'s NQS: We take disadvantage to gain speed so we can act more aggressively and compensate the disadvantage later with Counterbalance/Survival/Dark Confidant (take Standstills, Thirst for Knowledge and SB Counterbalance as equivalents to those).

[raharu]

Can someone tell me why we're trying to make LandStill agressivein the first place, please?

It's not an agressive deck. If you want something like what you're trying to make here, start with threshold and work towards landstill. The list I wrote has the potential to win quickly, i.e. close the game in a timely manner, but landstill, in any configuration, isn't fast. It won't be the agressor until somewhere after turn 5 at the earliest when tuned for it. All in all, it just sounds like a bad idea.

EDIT:

But, to quote Clemens: "Humility > d4t sh1t!"

Holy crap, for some reason I can't stop giggling. The thought of (one of) the Source's most refined poster(s) saying (/typing) that amuses me greatly.