[Deck] Skybus (UWB Moat Control)

[Phantom]

I'm afraid of this move also being too slow (or somewhat redundant because you can Return to Dust a Deed too if need arises) but I'll give it a shot.

Keep in mind their goal (especially Landstill) is going to be to drop Deed AND blow it for 4 before passing priority since we run Vindicate. Even instants like Return to Dust are useless to us there. Our only answers are to win the counter war (not always possible against control) our to Stifle/Trickbind.

I really hope Jace works out for you, as he would be so powerful here and could replace Haunting Echoes slot. I'm just really worried that he dies to a single Goyf swing.


Edit-
@Cranial Extraction or Lobotomy: I'm not that desperate to stop Grips I think. Mages are good because they are solid against so many decks, and I'll just use Extirpate on their Grips after they use one (another reason I like seeing multiple Moats).

[Phantom]

So, this deck is simply fantastic. Been raping with it on MWS (which I know isn't the most amazing thing ever, but it's all I got). Here's the list I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [10E] Island (4)
2 [CHK] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LG] Moat
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [MR] Second Sunrise
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find


The maindeck is running tight right now. Everything is coming up when I want. The only thing I might try is a Jace in a Serum Visions spot, but I'm really not crazy about letting them draw into their outs. I also think I'd like 2.5 Wraths, and can't decide if it should be 2 or 3. Cunning Wish has also been SO great (Pulse especially) so I'm thinking about upping them to a 4-of. Tough call though.

The board has been messed with a lot. Meddling Mage is out. I never liked it at all as it goes against so much of my deck (making creature removal relevant for them, making Wrath a bitch for me). My basic strategy of "draw more Moats than they draw Grips is working out fine (note the high ass cantrip number), and I'm testing Second Sunrise and Argivian Find to supplement that as wish targets (I'd clearly like to keep Sunrise in there as it lets Moat to come back before they can attack).

I think I'd like to squeeze in some more yard hate, but they might come around the smaller I can make the board.

One last thing, is there a wish target that will keep you me from decking myself? Or losing when I do? It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will. (The only one I can find is Beacon of Immortality)

[Illissius]

I'd just point out that Second Sunrise is symmetric. It'll save you for a turn if they don't have another four mana to Deed again, but I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for.

As for not decking yourself, there's Mnemonic Nexus. And hopefully something better.

[Phantom]

I'd just point out that Second Sunrise is symmetric. It'll save you for a turn if they don't have another four mana to Deed again, but I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for.

As for not decking yourself, there's Mnemonic Nexus. And hopefully something better.

Fixed the Second Sunrise stupidity. And yeah, Beacon and Nexus aren't exactly blowing me away.

[Nihil Credo]

One last thing, is there a wish target that will keep you me from decking myself? Or losing when I do?

Why not instead Wish for Brain Freeze, save up a few instants (or chain Wishes), and cast it for, say, ~12 cards thus decking the opponent?

[raharu]

Reminisce. I like the Onslaught Foil ones, tres sexy, and only $0.50!

[Phantom]

Reminisce. I like the Onslaught Foil ones, tres sexy, and only $0.50!

It's a sorcery...

[Dilettante]

Here are your wishboard options...
Bone Harvest
Mnemonic Nexus
Reinforcements
Stream of Consciousness

[raharu]

]: Oops!

[Phantom]

Here are your wishboard options...
Bone Harvest
Mnemonic Nexus
Reinforcements
Stream of Consciousness

Sadly, none of those work for me. I run no creatures, so Reinforcements and Bone Harvest don't work. Nexus is symmetrical, will make the game last for freaking ever, and I 'll probably still deck myself first, and Stream of Consciousness only puts 4 cards on top of my library, which doesn't prevent a deck running 10+ cantrips from decking itself.

So basically it's Brain Freeze, or find a spot mainboard for a Haunting Echoes. I'll have to test some more and see.

[Cavius The Great]

Phantom, I just checked SCG.com and all of the Moats are sold out. Are these your doings?

[Phantom]

Phantom, I just checked SCG.com and all of the Moats are sold out. Are these your doings?

I couldn't really say, but here's the newest list I've been testing:

// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [CHK] Plains (1)
2 [10E] Island (4)
1 [LRW] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Moat
3 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FNM] Counterspell
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage


I'm still playing with the board and all the numbers, but I do think CB/Top might have a place here. The decks curve is amazingly varied, and can target whatever CC hurts it most from the opposing deck.

[Phantom]

Ok, so CB/Top is definitely the way to go. I love having access to a wide variety of casting costs. I just won a fetchlands tendril matchup thanks to having access to 3cc to stop Wipe Away.

Anyway, the big question for me now is colors. I've always run UWb to have access to Vindicate, Bitterblossom, and Extirpate out of the board. Well, I've been trying straight UW and liking it a lot. Here's the list:

// Lands
5 [RAV] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [LG] Moat
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [IA] Counterspell
2 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields


Shackles will probably come out of the board. They are nice, but I need Mages more I think. Quash is interesting anti-Loam tech, but is no where near Extirpate. The two Dragons have been pretty nice, but I might need to drop a land for something. The deck doesn't have quite the power level as UWb, but it is much more consistent in the face of discard and LD, which had been great.

[Illissius]

Quash. That's awesome tech. Word is that Shadowmoor will have a Quash for which works on every card type. There's also Honor the Fallen if you think that'll help shore up the lack of Extirpate at all.

Why did you go down to three Moats maindeck? I thought "Moat early, Moat often" was sort of the motto of this deck.

This might seem a bit out of left field, but have you considered Ancient Tomb at all? (Perhaps while replacing some Hoofprints with Exalted Angels). I keep wanting to put Ancient Tomb into decks which don't also have City of Traitors and Chrome Mox in them. It's both acceleration and card advantage (two lands in one), and is something like the least work required ever to accelerate you by a turn -- just slots into the manabase. Here, the main attraction is it'll let you Moat a turn faster, among other things (like Angels); (though it'd work even better in a deck with actual draw spells instead of Ponders). This deck is pretty ideally suited to keeping the extra damage you've taken from becoming dangerous in the later game (while playing stuff a turn earlier can save you a bunch in the early game), with Moat, Counterbalance-Top, Wish->Pulse, and Angels if you decide to play them.

Is Argivian Find a better Wish target than Enlightened Tutor? Both will get you a Moat after one has been destroyed, while Tutor will also get you a Moat if you haven't drawn one (or just want a second, whatever). It'll complete Counterbalance-Top, too, now that you use it. On the other hand, Tutor is obviously card disadvantage, while Find isn't.

Also, what do you think about these cards as Wish targets? Submerge, Wing Shards, Dominate.

[Phantom]

Quash. That's awesome tech. Word is that Shadowmoor will have a Quash for which works on every card type. There's also Honor the Fallen if you think that'll help shore up the lack of Extirpate at all.

Interesting. I'm not sure if I'll switch over for the extra mana since I've never needed to Quash anything that's not an instant or sorcery, but it's something to think about. The lack of extirpate is annoying, but not terrible, and probably not worth another board slot. I have Quash for game 1, and 3 crypts to board in for game 2. Not sure what that does to the dredge matchup.

Why did you go down to three Moats maindeck? I thought "Moat early, Moat often" was sort of the motto of this deck.

It is, and if you notice, I still have all four between the 75, I'm just playing around with the numbers. There are a few reasons I'm trying it as a mainboard three of:

1) The reason I want multiple Moats usually is so if one gets destroyed, I have backup. Many decks don't have any way to deal with it game 1 anyway, so 1 is as good as 2.
2) I run CB now so I can stop their removal (including Grip) more often.
3) I'm trying to win games quicker to make the deck more tourney viable and multiple Moats don't help that.
4) With 4 BS, Ponder, 3 top, and 12 shuffle effects I can usually find them when I need them.

Still, I'm not sure if this is the right call. I'm sticking with three till I start losing due to lack of them.

This might seem a bit out of left field, but have you considered Ancient Tomb at all? (Perhaps while replacing some Hoofprints with Exalted Angels). I keep wanting to put Ancient Tomb into decks which don't also have City of Traitors and Chrome Mox in them. It's both acceleration and card advantage (two lands in one), and is something like the least work required ever to accelerate you by a turn -- just slots into the manabase. Here, the main attraction is it'll let you Moat a turn faster, among other things (like Angels); (though it'd work even better in a deck with actual draw spells instead of Ponders). This deck is pretty ideally suited to keeping the extra damage you've taken from becoming dangerous in the later game (while playing stuff a turn earlier can save you a bunch in the early game), with Moat, Counterbalance-Top, Wish->Pulse, and Angels if you decide to play them.

I have considered it. I'm not sure that deck could support and though. The counter sweet might have to just be Force and some amount of Dazes, and I think Hoof would be dropped all together for wincons of Sea Drakes, Angels, Serendibs and things like that.

I really haven't had enough time to try all the Moat iterations yet, so it's possible that deck is stronger though losing the CB engine would be tough. If you find a build that can support CB, Tomb, Moat, and a good amount of wincons, let me know.

Is Argivian Find a better Wish target than Enlightened Tutor? Both will get you a Moat after one has been destroyed, while Tutor will also get you a Moat if you haven't drawn one (or just want a second, whatever). It'll complete Counterbalance-Top, too, now that you use it. On the other hand, Tutor is obviously card disadvantage, while Find isn't.

Honestly I don't know. I put Argivian Find and Second Sunrise in the board to help fight Grip, and I put E Tutor in there to find win cons. I haven't wished for any of them yet. I might put Tutor back in the Argivian Find slot not that I run the CB engine as setting that up can be worth all the tempo and card disadvantage.

Also, what do you think about these cards as Wish targets? Submerge, Wing Shards, Dominate.

I really don't know. I rarely wish for creature answers. Submerge seems cheap but rarely useful, Wing Shards seems nice but expensive, and Dominate seems incredible but narrow and really expensive. I might go on MWS one day with a 15 card wishboard and just record how often I grab each target. Dismantling Blow is def the most wished for, with Condemn and Trickbind being very solid. Quash was just recently tried but has been used a lot. I'm not sure if I should try putting a draw spell back in, and if I do should it be fact or Meditate.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I'll keep the updates coming.

[Phantom]

I've become convinced that UW is the way to play this deck by utterly destroying decks I've faced on MWS and in real life (it's not perfect, but it's what i got). Black offered some great, but in the end unessential, tools, but one of the best ways to attack this deck is to attack the mana base, and a third color just makes that all the easier. Now the deck can run a ton of basics and still hit and .

Also, I really like the Shackles out of the board. At first I put them in to fight against anything running flyers, but now I've realized they are great against decks running Grip for your Moats. I've honestly found the best way to beat artifact and enchanment hate is to simply give them way too many targets (CB, Top, Hoof, Moat, Shackles).

I'll probably work on a post for the established forum at some point. Thanks for all the help here.

[YuanTi]

Has removing Black really helped overall?

Bitterblossom chump blocks Goyf all day, and wins you the game the second you have a moat.

Extirpate is also an amazing wish target, without it you need to drop a moat before Ichorid go off, which could be very difficult, and it hits Loam Decks hard, and can even be used to capitalise on anything thats made its way into their yard.

I definitely support running Tutor in the Argivian Find slot. It guarantees what you need for that matchup.

[Phantom]

Has removing Black really helped overall?

Bitterblossom chump blocks Goyf all day, and wins you the game the second you have a moat.

Extirpate is also an amazing wish target, without it you need to drop a moat before Ichorid go off, which could be very difficult, and it hits Loam Decks hard, and can even be used to capitalise on anything thats made its way into their yard.

I was actually surprised by the quality of the UW build myself. The entire meta it seems is keying on non basics and land hate through Blood Moon, B2B, Wasteland, Port, Sinkhole, Stifle, and many others. Black offers a quality win condition, a versatile piece of removal, and some great sideboard options. This is all true. This is not, however, what the deck needs. The deck needs stability and mana. UW offers that in spades through allied colors that can run a lot of fetches, a lot of basics, quality plains-cyclers, while easily achieving double white and blue.

I can't speak to the impact on the Ichoroid matchup as I've never played against it, but Loam is still a good matchup. Pre board they can't deal with Moat or Counterbalance (and there is always Wish -> Quash to shut down their draw engine) and postboard we get more graveyard hate and too many Krosan Grip targets to handle (bring in the Shackles).

This is actually something I've been meaning to point out as a strength of this deck. Being able to flood opponents who board in 3-4 answers to artifacts/enchantments is amazingly good.

As to the board, here's what I'm testing now:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust

I upped the Stifle count to help against Goblins (though it clearly is useful against Combo and Deed too) and replaced Find with E. Tutor (I still have never wished for either). Return to Dust is back as I have occasionally needed two pieces of removal in that category.

[raharu]

So, what does the deck look like as of late?

[raharu]

So, what does the deck look like as of late?

?