Sorry guys, but any list without Goblin War Strike is horribly suboptimal.
I can't count the number of times I've wished for GWS anymore. I've even casted it on turn 1 numerous times. I also can't count the number of times my opponent flipped Explosives / Pyroclasm / whatever after the game and said "Screw your GWS". I also can't count the number of times I've read about this exact scenario in other people's tournament reports. I don't care whether you're successful or not, A Legend. In this case you're just plain wrong.
So let's see what's essential for the WISHboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Goblin War Strike
and probably:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Damage Spell (Chain Lightning, Cave-In, Tendrils of Agony)
One thing I've never understood, what on earth is Infernal Tutor for? I've asked this before in this thread and haven't gotten an answer. It's not a Demonic Tutor, it's a Diabolic Tutor you waste a Burning Wish on. I can't imagine a single scenario where this would be good.
About Dry Spell:
Don't forget that the original reasoning behind Pyroclasm/Cave-In was Gaddock Teeg/Meddling Mage, which are actually relevant. I can't think of any creature that is relevant to Belcher and has an ass of one.This spell knocks off not only creatures, but it deals damage to an opponent as well. This card hits every creature on the board. What's one damage, you say? Just think about all the relevant creatures in the format. Most of their asses are one.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already hadOriginally Posted by herbig
Perhaps you can use it, in rare cases, to find and activate a Belcher. I don't know what else.
I've just goldfished this list for about a dozen games, and in most of them I went off with EtW or Belcher no later than turn 2. Manamorphose has proven very useful in hands like SSG, SSG, Seething Song, Land Grant, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, Burning Wish - this hand allows for 12-14 goblins on turn 1 with the help of transforming the red mana from Seething Song into black for the Dark Ritual.
The loss of the second land did not appear to have affected the consistency of the deck, as far as I can tell, due to the addition of Manamorphose.
4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
That's utterly ridiculous. There's no diagnostic evidence to support that statement.
And I never have, so what's your point? I almost don't believe you because I've goldfished the deck thousands of times and played hundreds of games with it in tournaments and have never once had that happen. You'll have to show your list and explain that because [unfortunately] - that's almost impossible.I can't count the number of times I've wished for GWS anymore. I've even casted it on turn 1 numerous times.
It's not, it's a vestigial organ from the original list that most people forget to have removed.
That list goldfishes REALLY nicely. Manamorphose is really dirty, and I'm actually surprised about Spoils of the Vault. It's a really cheap tutor - kind of a Burning Wish for your library. In the 8 or so games I goldfished, the most it did was 12 (after which I was able to Belch for the win).
Yeah, Spoils is a semi-backup plan for me. If I have a hand with a Spoils and a Warrens, I tend to go for goblins rather than risk losing the game outright. In all of my goldfishing, I've only went past more than 19 cards on one occasion.
Spoils is interesting idea, but I'm not sure how good it is. Old-school Belcher lists used to run it, but I think it got cut once EtW was printed (since the EtW/Wish/Belcher package provides more consistency and less risk). I don't think Spoils is necessary any more, but I'll mess around with the list. Regardless, Manamorphose looks pretty damn ridiculous for this deck.
I's purpose is when you have 2 or 4 mana left when you want to Wish->EtW to up the storm by 1-2. Usually it doesn't really matter, but it can be handy if your opponent might outrace you. If you also play ToA and IGG in the Sb you can win with ToA if you have 2 LED's, 4 mana and a Wish. It's not great, but probably at least as useful as Goblin War Strike.
I have kinda been out of the loop with legacy for a while, but I remembered a lot of hype over street wraith.
With manamorphose almost bringing the deck size down to 56, why not include street wraith to get it down to 52? In addition, both help to get to thresh faster with c rit.
Sorry if this is ignorant talk, but like I said, I have been out of the loop for some time.
Why is it that everyone thinks that manamorphose is crazy in this deck? The only instance in which I reckon this could be okay, was in the three-color build, and that is not the best build (at least not in my opinion).
It is a great mana-fixer, but aside from that, it kinda blows in this deck - it does nothing. I'd rather play street wraith, because even though it doesn't make storm-count, it can be cast always, and it can't be countered...
I really don't think that manamorphose is great in this deck - but maybe a new deck could be made viable with the inclusion of this... Some kind of RG storm deck with hunting pack maybe?
Anyway: PLease explain why manamorphose would be as great as it seems you guys think.
- meanee
Whats not great about it?
It's literally free storm count. You invest 2 mana and one card, and you get 2 mana and 1 card. On top of that it fixes mana.
I fail to see how Street Wraith is remotely as good as this card. It has no potential to fix mana, it costs you 2 life, and nets you no storm.
TPDMC
But it does not do anything (neither does street wraith, but it won't make you die to a spell snare).
If you're trying to explode, you can't rely on drawing a relevant card with this. I see that it makes a "free" storm, but the card you draw won't matter a thing, because, when you play this, you're trying to go off anyway, and if you're relying on drawing what you need to kill your opponent with manamorphose, you're in a very bad situation, and you will most likely die.
The only thing I see this card doing, is making a +1 stormcount - anyway, that is the only thing you can RELY on. On some occasions it is clear that it will generate a +2 storm, but it will not matter much, because if you're trying to make the kill with EtW you are most likely not making 16-20 goblins anyway, and so you have to strike twice regardless. That is not very impressive... You could just as well play welding jar...
- meanee
as i see it the manamorphosis can help to build up a 1-land 3 colour version that does not kill itself that easy like any 1-land 3 colour belcher version before.
its a manafixer that cycles, the free storm is a plus but not the reason for getting your hands on it.
at the spell snare argument i can say that in the r/g version you have desperate ritual in its place, which can be countered by spell snare too and if i can pull a spell snare to move my burning wish more freely i would take that chance too.
Please tell me you wont replace desperate ritual with this! That is a very bad choice!
If your point is, that the normal recent rg-build is also vulnerable to spell snare, I know. My point is, that for a card that does not win you the game, nor makes additional mana, nor does anything else relevant for you while going of, it is not a great plan, that it can be countered by one of the most played counterspells in the format, thus breaking you combochain...
- meanee
Belcher, unfortunately, needs to run suboptimal cards to get to 60.
Spoils of the Vault is too risky
Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor aren't worth a third colour.
Living Wish, Storm Entity or Tarmogoyf are rather weak as backup plays.
Maindeck Protection is a cheap way out; what we really want is more speed.
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor or Manamorphose are blatant fillers.
Should we begin to discuss adding Vexing Shusher to the sideboard of Belcher decks?
I personally am liking the Guttural Response and will probably replace 4 of my blasts with them. The mana flexibility is nice.
Mike
It only counters blue instants, REBs/Pyroblasts seem much better.
Things like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, etc, can be countered by the blasts, where Guttural Response really only answers Force of Will and Stifle.
TPDMC
This is exactly what I was thinking. Manamorphose would replace Wild Cantors in a three-color build and perhaps allow for Bayou to be cut.
Also, Guttural Response seems pretty bad. The deck has more access to red mana than green mana anyways, so it's basically as easily castable as REB/Pyroblast but more narrow. In fact, it seems worse than REB/Pyroblast in general unless you're running it in a deck without red.
Street Wraith is awful and should not be run in Belcher, we can argue (yet again) about the 56 card effect but it does not improve consistency and makes things even more vague; especially when you have a hand of 6 acceleration spells and Street Wraith, with Spoils of the Vault that is a turn 1 win.
I am an advocate of playing Spoils of the Vault, personally I think 3x is the right number because you only want to draw/play 1 per game. I think the reason most people don't like Spoils is that when goldfishing the deck no one takes the time to seriously shuffle the deck which does impact Spoils if everything is at the bottom. If you make a conscious effort to pile shuffle the deck after each play it will make a difference.
True, you will kill yourself with the card, nature of the beast. But Spoils does something amazing for Belcher, it lets you play 14-15 win conditions instead of the usual 11 (4x Burning Wish, 4x Belcher, 3x Empty) and helps the deck recover more effeciently from hand destruction. The only other card that can be played in its space is Plunge into Darkness which is inferior due to its casting cost. When Spoils of the Vault is cast you will generally win the turn is is cast. It greatly speeds up the deck and makes it mulligan less; and that (to me) is an even trade off for a random death on occassion. You really don't kill yourself much with Spoils and I strongly suggest you test is out, it is amazing. It also forces you to know every card in your deck because when you cast Spoils you are always thinking to yourself "what do I have in my deck that is still a 4x of and has x effect."
I thought that somebody might find this interesting. As far as spoils of the vault goes and assuming that you are at 20 life.
If you have 53 cards left in the deck, spoils has a:
(49!*(53-20)!)/(53!*(49-20)!) = 13.97% of killing you searching for a 4 of.
If you have 52, (48!*(52-20)!)/(52!*(48-20)!) = 13.28%
If 51, (47!*(51-20)!)/(51!*(47-20)!) = 12.59%
If 50, (46!*(50-20)!)/(50!*(46-20)!) = 11.90%
I don't think that it is often that you would take more than 10 cards out of your library before you are looking at dipping below 20 life in legacy, whereas spoils is a bad idea anyway unless you are desperate.
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