[Deck] Belcher

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah I think I meant Serum Powder. The one that gives a free mulligan. I would think this lets you run 56 card decks.

Theres also that random card regrowth that might be breakable with mana accell in the new set.

Serum Powder is not the same as running a 56 card deck. It forces you to mulligan if you have it in your hand because it is a completely dead card, cannot produce mana (because of the investment), and it has the disadvantage of completely screwing you over if you end up removing your one Taiga along with your hand when you use the Serum Powder. GR Belcher needs more mana acceleration, not fluf like Serum Powder.

[BreathWeapon]

Serum Powder is not the same as running a 56 card deck. It forces you to mulligan if you have it in your hand because it is a completely dead card, cannot produce mana (because of the investment), and it has the disadvantage of completely screwing you over if you end up removing your one Taiga along with your hand when you use the Serum Powder. GR Belcher needs more mana acceleration, not fluf like Serum Powder.

Unless Monolith is unbanned or you're in the Dark Ritual/Bayou crowd, anything you put in that slot is pretty much fluff any way, so you may as well pick your poison.

[Michael Keller]

I think we had this conversation a few pages back about Serum Powder: It's not great but at the same time I think everyone is pretty much aware it can reset your hand. The only problem is, you're giving up a precious acceleration or win condition for it (same goes for Wraith - you don't know what you're drawing into). It all depends on your style. If you're a more conservative player, chances are you'd prefer to play Serum Powder. If you're not, you obviously wouldn't.

[Nihil Credo]

From what little testing I did, by FAR the BIGGEST problem with Serum Powder is that it tells your opponent that you're playing Belcher, which is absolutely murder when you're on the play in G1 - it tells them to mull for answers. Were it not for that, the effect would probably be worth it.

[Michael Keller]

From what little testing I did, by FAR the BIGGEST problem with Serum Powder is that it tells your opponent that you're playing Belcher, which is absolutely murder when you're on the play in G1 - it tells them to mull for answers. Were it not for that, the effect would probably be worth it.

Belcher should in no way be running Street Wraith or Serum Powder - or Manamorphose. This is not "Bauble Burn" or anything like the sort. These are replacement cards that, while functioning for a subtle purpose, serve no real effect other than thinning your deck out and drawing into something potentially irrelevant. It's all about the opening hand. Does Storm really matter when you can already Empty for twelve? Just take your opening seven and deal with it from there. If you have to mulligan, then do it. But don't sacrifice acceleration (the key to the deck, people) for mana-fixing cards in a deck that packs over thirty percent acceleration already. Remember, there is a difference between acceleration and mana production. Will it help you draw into that Belcher or Wish? Maybe. But ask yourself this:

Are you willing to take that chance playing at Worlds or a 50+ person tournament?

[Willoe]

I just tested a list with 4 street wraith, and I didn't had any mulligan problem. The list I play might be flooded with mana acceleration (I don't have the list right now, since I can't open MWS), but how often does it happen when Street Wraith could be in your opening hand? Say your opening hand consists of:

Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Goblin Charbelcher, Street Wraith and a Burning Wish.

I would definetely keep this hand. If you cycle Street Wraith, you can run into 1*taiga, 4*land grant, 3*lotus petal, 3*rite of flame, 3*desperate ritual, 4*seething song, 4* simian spirit guide, 4* tinder wall, 4* elvish spirit guide or even 3* street wraith. In total, that's 30 (with the street wraith, otherwise it's 30). 30/53*100=56,6% of winning the game now.

This might be a very wierd scenario, as it not directly kills you if you miss. You just go (you know the drill) petal, rite, desp. rit, LED, Burning, resp crack LED grabbing ETW, making twelve gobs.

But consider the situation: Often the cycle with street wraith has a greater chance of winning the game rather than giving the opponent a timewalk. How big does this win-% need to be to keep the opening hand.

I'm testing a lot of combo decks at the moment, and belcher's one of them. I post my list later if you want to see it. It's nothing fancy, but I think it's pretty good.

[b4r0n]

Belcher should in no way be running Street Wraith or Serum Powder - or Manamorphose. This is not "Bauble Burn" or anything like the sort. These are replacement cards that, while functioning for a subtle purpose, serve no real effect other than thinning your deck out and drawing into something potentially irrelevant. It's all about the opening hand. Does Storm really matter when you can already Empty for twelve? Just take your opening seven and deal with it from there. If you have to mulligan, then do it. But don't sacrifice acceleration (the key to the deck, people) for mana-fixing cards in a deck that packs over thirty percent acceleration already. Remember, there is a difference between acceleration and mana production.

I agree that Street Wraith and Serum Powder don't belong in the deck. But how can you claim that Manamorphose has no place when you yourself have had success with Wild Cantor in your list? Manamorphose is not replacing any acceleration; rather, it simply seems like an improvement for that mana-fixing slot. I'm curious as to what your rationale is for thinking otherwise.

[Michael Keller]

Well here's my reckoning behind playing Wild Cantor:

Wild Cantor only costs one to play. You need to be able to use that additional mana for something really important. Like, Desperate Ritual or even Burning Wish. Seriously, though: Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. /sarcasm.

Wild Cantor can swing, it can block, and it costs one - perfect for Dark Ritual. You don't want to accelerate into a Manamorphose, get your two mana back, then draw into X, when you have Y in your hand that wins the game anyways.

I'm going to try and say this slowly so people can understand:

Bel...cher...does...not...need...man...uh...fix...ing.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm going to try and say this slowly so people can understand:

Bel...cher...does...not...need...man...uh...fix...ing.

Wild Cantor is what again?

[Michael Keller]

Wild Cantor is a creature that adds one of any color to your mana pool and costs one.

I should have said: Any other predominant mana-fixers. Apologies.

[Nightmare]

Wild Cantor also:

~ Stores mana, in case the need to, you know, activate a Belcher arises and it isn't turn 1.
~ Removes Bridge from Below from the game.
~ Blocks Goblin Lackey
~ Swings for 1
~ Costs a single mana
~ Sucks.

Seriously, if we're comparing "Shitty card in Belcher A" to "Shitty card in Belcher B," that's fine, but remember you're debating over what card sucks less.

[Michael Keller]

Wild Cantor also:

~ Stores mana, in case the need to, you know, activate a Belcher arises and it isn't turn 1.
~ Removes Bridge from Below from the game.
~ Blocks Goblin Lackey
~ Swings for 1
~ Costs a single mana
~ Sucks.

Seriously, if we're comparing "Shitty card in Belcher A" to "Shitty card in Belcher B," that's fine, but remember you're debating over what card sucks less.

Sigh of relief.

[m03]

Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. /sarcasm.

So they can cast Tinder Wall and Dark Ritual afterwards, of course.

Or heck, maybe even two Tinder Walls, if you had that kind of hand.

The draw almost always gives you either mana acceleration or something that can be imprinted on Chrome Mox. Not that I would count on the draw doing anything useful, but it's better than nothing.

A better question would be, if Manamorphose didn't cantrip, would it still be considered as a replacement for Wild Cantor?

[Michael Keller]

It doesn't really matter. Personally, I've had a tremendous amount of success with the deck and Cantor and I am not about to cut him out until I see a feasible reason to.

[Nightmare]

So they can cast Tinder Wall and Dark Ritual afterwards, of course.

Or heck, maybe even two Tinder Walls, if you had that kind of hand.

The draw almost always gives you either mana acceleration or something that can be imprinted on Chrome Mox. Not that I would count on the draw doing anything useful, but it's better than nothing.

A better question would be, if Manamorphose didn't cantrip, would it still be considered as a replacement for Wild Cantor?

What mana sources are you running that can cast Rite of Flame, but not Tinder Wall? I mean, there's Chrome Mox, but that's like, the least reliable mana source you have.

[Jaynel]

Seriously, though: Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. /sarcasm.

Plus one to Storm, of course. And the potential of drawing into another mana source, free or otherwise, that nets you ANOTHER spell for Storm.

Wild Cantor is, in my experience, the absolute weakest card in the deck and I've been looking to replace him forever. Manamorphose is the best candidate for the job.

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.

[m03]

What mana sources are you running that can cast Rite of Flame, but not Tinder Wall? I mean, there's Chrome Mox, but that's like, the least reliable mana source you have.

Fair enough. I didn't think my logic through on the first example. The second is valid, albeit less likely to occur. Though, it's happened quite a few times during testing.

[sunshine]

Worst case scenario for a belcher player (next to mulling into oblivion) is when you open with an amazing draw only to get stifled/orim’s chanted/whatevered after you blow most or all of your acceleration ramping up to go for a kill. This is where manamorphose has a critical advantage over wild cantor. The important thing is that manamorphose is potentially +2 storm count as opposed to +1 from cantor. In other words, you can often hold more cards back when using manamorphose because you reach critical storm more quickly (even if you only get to hold one extra card back it is still significant) – which just makes it easier to recover from a foiled first attempt.

I'm not trying to say that manamorphose is strictly better than wild cantor in this deck, just that it is definatley worth testing for the spot.

[Michael Keller]

Plus one to Storm, of course. And the potential of drawing into another mana source, free or otherwise, that nets you ANOTHER spell for Storm.

Wild Cantor is, in my experience, the absolute weakest card in the deck and I've been looking to replace him forever. Manamorphose is the best candidate for the job.

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.

I'm just wondering: Why would someone cast Manamorphose and keep a hand without a win condition in it already...? Is the replacement draw really that essential when all you need to do is end up somehow having X+2 red mana at most? All you need is one red for hard-casting Warrens or having two red mana to Wish for it and then to cast the side-board Warrens. I mean, if you want to play Manamorphose you can, but for all intents and purposes it's up to the player and it really makes no difference. Is there really a difference between twelve and fourteen tokens when your opponent is on a two-turn clock anyways? In fact, all you're really doing is burning more cards so your opponent can Explosives away everything you made. At least (and I use that term loosely) Cantor can stay in play if that's the situation.

[Nightmare]

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.

OR, and stick with me here, cause I know you guys can do it - Your opponent didn't let you goldfish all over their face, and you're rebuilding to like, activate Belcher or something. Who knew? I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Belcher player sit with a land, an untapped Belcher, and a Spirit Guide in hand. Let's say your next draw is either Cantor or Manamorphose. You either cantrip, losing your second mana source in the process and hoping for another mana source off the top, or you play a Cantor, invest literally nothing but a card into it and have the mana to activate Belcher next turn.