[OLD] UGw Threshold

[diffy]

Though I was always of the opinion that pyroclasm is simply overrated like hell against Goblins, my opinion changed when people started to play Mad Aunties.
Mad Aunties are annoying when you are playing with Engineered Plague as it neuters the effect of 1 Plague. you will need a second one to sweep the board an keep it clear, but Pyroclasm sweeps every Goblin (because it kills the Auntie immediately; yes, the Goblin player will regenerate 1 Goblin, but so what?).

I always thought (and still do think) that Blue Elemental Blasts and Hydroblasts are the best hate against Goblins:

• They are cheap which is nice when facing Wastelands and Ports or when wanting to advance your own gameplan (playing aggressively is the key to victory against Goblins)
• They are in your main colour which is especially nice when playing the 5c manabase
• They are Instants which is relevant to stop Warchief/Piledriver or Vial shenanigans which seem to always let Goblins recover post-Pyroclasm.
• They aren't only removal which is very relevant against Ringleaders/Matrons
• They are also good in other matchups - they can come in against a number of decks, most prominently Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam and Belcher/TES.

Pyroclasm and Plague also offer some flexibility but their uses are rather limited if you compare them to Blue Blasts: Plague and Pyroclasm can both come in against Ichorid which is an abysmal matchup anyway - you'll still loose. They are also some use against Empty the Warrens, which is a point but Blue Blasts are usually better against combo as they destroy Vexing Shusher or counter Rituals/Burning Wishes - they disrupt early whereas Pyroclasm or Plague just stop one of their finishers. Plague can also be boarded in the Breakfast matchup but does that deck still exist?
On the other hand, Blue Blasts actually make relevant bad matchups better (i.e. anything with Moon) which I like.

[jazzykat]

Sorry, repsonded to wrong post!

[Obfuscate Freely]

Blue Blasts are definitely fantastic, for all the reasons that you stated, Freund. They are, of course, awesome against Goblins. However, against the little green men, Pyroclasm is a much more powerful, and singularly effective card.

Consider that the deck is already fairly well equipped, with Force of Will, Daze, and Thoughtseize, to stop Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs from hitting play. However, Pyroclasm gives you something you otherwise don't have access to: a way to wipe an entire board of Goblins off the table.

If you want to talk about playing aggressively, no other card puts as much pressure on a Goblin opponent as Pyroclasm does. Drawing a single copy of it will let you switch roles and go on the offensive, even if you only have a Mongoose in play. Drawing multiples can let you time walk an opponent right out of the game, and there is precious little that he or she can do about it.

Pyroclasm is also more versatile than you give it credit for. It certainly does come in against combo, and does a fine job of killing Shushers, Confidants, Swarms, and swarms of Goblin tokens. Some number of Pyroclasms also come in against Survival decks, and against decks with Magus of the Moon (answering Magus by tapping Polluted Delta and Tropical Island to play Pyroclasm is always a fun play). And yes, Pyroclasm is good against Ichorid, which becomes at least a winnable matchup if you have Jailers, as well.

Now, again, Blue Blasts are great. I never leave home without them. However, if Goblins is a factor, I would always argue for the inclusion of Pyroclasm.

[Nihil Credo]

I would also like to note that in the early rounds when you face random decks, Pyroclasm has more chances of being useful than BEBs. Against Affinity you can counter the Ravagers and rely on Pyroclasm to get rid of everything else. Against Enchantress it kills their namesake. Against Sui Black it kills most of their deck, depending on the exact build.

[Adan]

Yes Clemens, it also pwns you if you try again to annoy me to death with your ridiculous(ly stong) Elves!.dec. (SRSLY, he has beaten me about 100 times with it.)

Pyroclasm = good card.

Well, I already begun to believe that 5color Threshold is very suitable and competitive in a bread metagame with the configuration like Alix has played it at that tourney in Syracuse: The Sideboard has got all the hate I always wished for in the SB in UGW.

But ObFreeley, why did you exchanged the 2 Portents for 2 Predicts? I found the 2 Portents amazing as they also make Counterbalance safer/better.

[raharu]

Tangent: is there any competitive reason to play Ugbw over 5c?

[Adan]

Tangent: is there any competitive reason to play Ugbw over 5c?

The Manabase. The 5color manabase is way more solid than the 4color manabase with 3 different duals (3/3/3 of Tropical/Tundra/U-Sea).

Plus, you have access to red for some cool sideboardcards against several decks you might be afraid of:

Ancient Grudge against Stax and Dragonstompy
Pyroclasm against Goblins, Imperial Painter, Magus of the Moon in general...
Red Elemental Blast against blue-based decks, Painter

Dunno, but Pyroclasm is one of the card I often miss when playing UGW.

[Omega]

Lifeloss with 5c should be a huge disadvantage

Ive finished 8th yesterday at nationals side event. And looking at my paper, ive won many games at lower than 8 life. The city of brass would have made that win into defeat :O

belcher and UW landstill beat me. I can't believe ive lost to belcher

Robert

[Citrus-God]

But the point of 5c Thresh is to prevent the damage before it happens. In other words, even if you're taking a chunk just by tapping City of Brass and casting Thoughtseizes, you're preventing threats from hitting play and ensuring your Counterbalances' safety, which of course leads to preventing threats from hitting play and protecting your threats as well.

To add on to this preventing threats concept, look at the sideboard of 5c Thresh. You see cards like Pyroclasm and Yixlid Jailers. You're protecting yourself from decks like Ichorid by using cards like Pyroclasm and Jailers and applying pressure with your green dudes.

I highly believe this concept justifies the inclusion of the 5-color mana base because of the card choices you have access to pre-board and post-board.

[raharu]

But the point of 5c Thresh is to prevent the damage before it happens. In other words, even if you're taking a chunk just by tapping City of Brass and casting Thoughtseizes, you're preventing threats from hitting play and ensuring your Counterbalances' safety, which of course leads to preventing threats from hitting play and protecting your threats as well.

To add on to this preventing threats concept, look at the sideboard of 5c Thresh. You see cards like Pyroclasm and Yixlid Jailers. You're protecting yourself from decks like Ichorid by using cards like Pyroclasm and Jailers and applying pressure with your green dudes.

I highly believe this concept justifies the inclusion of the 5-color mana base because of the card choices you have access to pre-board and post-board.

The Manabase. The 5color manabase is way more solid than the 4color manabase with 3 different duals (3/3/3 of Tropical/Tundra/U-Sea).

Plus, you have access to red for some cool sideboardcards against several decks you might be afraid of:

Ancient Grudge against Stax and Dragonstompy
Pyroclasm against Goblins, Imperial Painter, Magus of the Moon in general...
Red Elemental Blast against blue-based decks, Painter

Dunno, but Pyroclasm is one of the card I often miss when playing UGW.

Yeah, that's what I figured. For some reason I'm just drawn to a Ugbw build more :3 Oh well, PyroK is just too dumb to not have in my local meta anyway.

[Aleksandr]

On the last Friday I have tried my UGw Threshold. It is mix between old-school and modern design.. I like creature heavy builds (and Werebear, because of his prestigious right to bear arms), but I like control elements too. This was the list:

8 fetches
6 duals
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Goose
4 Goyf
3 Wereear
2 Enfie

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 FoW

3 Counterbalance

2 SDT

4 Ponder
1 Geddon

SB:
2 EE
3 T. Crypt
2 Needle
3 Propaganda
3 Energy Flux
2 Krosan Grip




Report:

1st round: Petr, Affinity:

g1: I put him under serious clock with Goyf, but then I make a mistake, when I allow the Vial to hit play. I thought that I got game under control and I saved my Counterspell against Fling. Few turns later I lose to Ravager of the Vault.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Flux and EE (hits Disciple, Platings and Ravatogs)

g2: I mulligan to Flux which I luckily find in my first seven or six cards. I wait for a third land a little bit longer, but I finally put it to play. Petr on his upkeep made a mistake.. if he sacrificed all to Atog and then proceeded to attack, I would lose my Goyf and he could (maybe) kill me with topdecked Disciple.

g3: I mull to Flux. On his 2nd turn, Petr finds Cabal Therapy and fires it. I BS in resp. and hide the Flux. After I put the Flux to play, Petr scoops.

During g2 he could have killed me, if only he eats everything to Atog. (During the attack previous to my landing of Flux..) But I asked him twice how does he stack the ability and then I straight away asked him, if he lets the ability resolve. He was immediately impressed that I have Swords, so he attacked just for 9 and Flings-a-Tog. I force and the turn after I play Flux and win. Hooray for this trick of mine!

------

Round 2, Michal, UR Landstill

We have met on the bar, took some drinks (nealko) and agreed that our first rounds were very hard. Then we acknowledged ourselves that we are paired against each other! Not knowing what each of us played, we have started the game.

g1: I put him under heavy beats with Goose and Goyf. Red has little against these two creatures...

Out: 4 Daze, 2 Ponder. In: 2 Needles, 2 Crypts, 2 Grips

g2: I did not manage anything and I lost very fast. My life went down 19-18-13-3 and then the column ends... BTW, Michal sided in Goyfs. I was not surprised, because I somehow guessed this tactic, but look in my SB - I got nothing against them except for EEs

Out: 2 Crypts, 2 Grips. In: 4 Daze

g3: It was the most exciting and shifting game of the whole tournament. I get some fast beatings with Mongoose and I Sword-off one Mishra. Then both of us get Counterbalance, but Michal later took them out with EE.. along with my Goyf. We landed another Counterbalances and on one occasion both of us forget to try it and rather hardcountered with Counterspells. Ridiculously enough, both of us had nothing on the top.
I finally get Needle on SDT, of which Michal gets rid with another EE. After he blew out the EE, I counter his Top, lay down my own, summon Enforcer and defeat him on the last extended turn.

------

Round 3, another Petr with another Affinity

g1: I started with perfect hand. After few hits with 1/1 Goose I lay down Counterbalance (which after all is not that bad against Affi - sure it does not stop Myr Enforcer, but it stops many other much more dangerous spells). While Petr was chewing me with a worker, I StPed his Frogmites, countered stuff via CB and FoW. My Goose finally goes the distance..

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Flux and EE

g2: I get fast Flux and Petr, obviously vexed, scoops. I regret him, but such is the game..

-------

Round 4, Tom, Hydrocephalic Breakfast

g1: OK, with all those counterspells, Swords and fast clock this could be good matchup.. unless he goldfishes on the first turn. I somehow survived the first critical turns and right after I assemble CB/SDT and find some Swords, game was mine.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Crypts and some crap. (EE? Needles? Maybe..)

g2: Sitting under CB/SDT, with Force backup, two Crypts online, StP in hand and another on the top of the Top... yeah, I won!
Although I lost half of my life points to Narcomoeba, FoWs and fetches... )


I took the Und. Sea and went to pub, where we discussed and playtest. In my testing I was somehow impressed by Geddon, so I did not took it out. We will see in the future if the card is valuable enough to stay in the deck...
But I made some minor changes. And there is is another tournament today...

Bye now!

[FredMaster]

Grats to the finish first of all.

I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?
2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?
3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

So far,
Fred

[Adan]

I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?

Enfie = Mystic Enforcer

2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?

No since it's only good against control and against any other deck too situational.

3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

In? Out? Out. Well, you can't kill Landstill fast enough, that's why they will relax in the earlygame and make their landdrops. They will play around Daze anyways, so postboard you simply keep the psychological advantage. But I personally also don't like boarding out Dazes against Landstill, except when you have Red Blasts.

Against UR Landstill, Dazes are better since UR landstill has got a way different concept as UWb Landstill for example (aggro-controlish).

[Aleksandr]

Grats to the finish first of all.

Thanks!

I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?

Enfie = Mystic Enforcer

2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?

No since it's only good against control and against any other deck too situational.

3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

In? Out? Out. Well, you can't kill Landstill fast enough, that's why they will relax in the earlygame and make their landdrops. They will play around Daze anyways, so postboard you simply keep the psychological advantage. But I personally also don't like boarding out Dazes against Landstill, except when you have Red Blasts.

Against UR Landstill, Dazes are better since UR landstill has got a way different concept as UWb Landstill for example (aggro-controlish).

Thanx for saving my keyboard!
The above is exactly true. I just add one more thing about Dazes.. I just wanted to steal some early tempo and be sure that I have enough blue spells for FoW and enough cc2 spells for Counterbalance..

EDIT: I am not 100% sure about situational aspect of Geddon. I like the sealing work it can do. With only one in the deck, it does not clog my hand, while with such a number of cantrips, I always find it, when I need one..

[raharu]

Tangent: A typical CB build of UGw thresh looks something like this, no?

Hand crating: 14
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4

Stack Control: 10
Daze x3
Force of Will x4
Counterbalance x3

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Lands: 18

With 4 to 6 slots open, depending on wether or not you insist on the 4th Daze and the 4th CB (personally, I don't). In transition from UGw to 5 color, if you're running Dark Confidant (which is the main reason to splash black, n'est pas?), it takes 3 slots from Predict and one from the free slots. So you have 3 to 5 left. Enforcer takes 1 to 2, so what takes the other 1 to 4 slots? Thoughtseize? Is 5c manabase + Dark Confidant + Thoughtseize too much*? Are there other things that would better use those slots?

*I don't really think it is, but I play DC with TS, Ajani, O Rings, and other high-cost cards in homebrew because I have obscenely large balls and "Dont Care" (flipping a TS sucks, but it has never killed me, so I've never let that bother me much).

[Obfuscate Freely]

I presume DC is the whole reason to splash black, regardless of what build you're playing.

...if you're running Dark Confidant (which is the main reason to splash black, n'est pas?)...

Yeah, I know, only douchebags quote themselves.

If you own Thoughtseizes, play them, whether you have Confidants or not.

Thoughtseize is an absurdly undercosted card... Every Thresh deck splashing black should have the card in it.

Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

[Aleksandr]

hi gusy am nu to this page and i paly wide threshthresh so i gotta rport 4 ya..



OK. Fine.

There was another tournament yesterday which I attended with my UGw Threshold. I made minor tweak in my list (-1 Bear, +1 SDT) to better manage Counterbalance and fetches.
Tournament started on 5.45 PM with "great" attendance of four participants. (Holidays ftl...) Nonetheless it was one of the most difficult and amusing tournaments I ever joined. No kidding!

The tournament took five rounds of Swiss and cut to Top 8...

-----


Round 1, Martin, TES

g1: For the first few turns Martin thought of my deck been Landstill - I force his Dark Confidant and I also put fast CB+SDT. With the appearance of Mongoose he is on the trail that I play Thresh. I chew him down from 19, 18, 17... to 13, where I cantrip for threshold and lay down another Mongoose. With 17 life remaining and CB combo set, I was far from lethal Tendrils.. and I had an Enforcer backup for the case of massive Warrens.

Out: Geddon and crap. In: 2 EE, 3 Propaganda

g2: Martin played Confidant and I once again assembled CB+Top. After taking four dmg I finally get a Goose to stop his attacks. But I was unable to find fast clock (read: Goyf) and I had same bad luck with removing his Confidant. After few turns (with all this CA) he comboed for 10 tokens. I fail to see EE/Ganda, so we went for the third game.

During shuffling the time was called.

g3: I mull to five. (First hand: basic Plains as the only land; second hand: no land at all..). I keep extremely strong hand which contained Tundra, Counterspell, Daze, Ponder and an unknown strong blue card (BS?). I am unable to win in three turns, so I just have to concern on preventing my opponent from win.
He needs to make storm of 9+ which is not unheard of (esp. on the draw), but he must do it either on his first turn (the 2nd extra turn..) in case of Warrens, or his second turn (the 4th extra turn) in case of Tendrils.
And some reasonable combinations are allowed. This is why I never play combo...

Strangely, I do not remember the final game well.. It was like:
I play Tundra and pass. Martin plays cantrip, which I Daze. I replay Tundra and pass. He plays land, LED, LED, LED, LP, Brainstorm, in resp. sac LEDs for 3x, 6x and storm:5. I BS and find nothing. His BS resolves. He had a reasonable chance for either Tutor or Wish for IGG (if not IGG alone), but failed to see anything. He burned for nine and we have a nice draw.

-----

Round 2, Tonda, MBA

g1: He thoughtseizes my SDT or CB. (I do not remember it exactly.) Then he lays down Confi, which I immediately sword. I put down Mongoose and bite him for 1, but he summons another Confi. He is on 19 and on the following turns his Confidant takes him down to 12 without making anything notable (well, except for huge CA).
During these turns we battle over with counters, removal, Counterblance and beats. I landed down Enforcer, which (despite of opposing Jitte) meant gg, but Tonda tried to find Hypnotic Specter, which could break the stall. He failed, I won.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: 2 EE, 2 Needle, 2 Grip (after the match Tonda told me that he took out Jittes... but I had at least some CB fodder against Perish, Nature Ruin and Specter.)

g2: We slowly build our possitions and we lose our hands to Rituals, Fows, Swords and Seizes. Tonda wins this battle, but it seemed like a Pyrrhic victory as he now only had a Hyppie.
Now watch carefully:
I had 18 life due to fetch and Force. Hyppie bit me for two and a crappy card. I am on 16 and fail to draw anything relevant. Same is true for Tonda. Next turn I get SDT at least, immediately screw the Top, but I see nothing. Tonda plays "land-attack-go" for few turns, but I fail to get any shuffle effect until I am on six life... I fetch and finally find Engineered Explosives. I must sustain yet another attack which took me down to 3 life, but during his next attack I break EEs, taking down the Specter.
Then I must fetch twice more for either Counterbalance or to find some critter which took me to 1 life. With him on twenty, I had no chance to resist forever and I lose to Withered Wretch or Nantuko Shade.

g3:

I start with Island and Tonda seizes me. The next turn I lay down the fetch, crack it and find Tundra and Island; of those Tonda randomly choosen which one I shall keep. (Tundra..) I was totally unable to choose by myself, or better yet - to choose by reason. I needed for CB (which I immediately played, btw), but I was afraid of Wasteland, because I was light on mana. So I let the decision to miss Fortune..
Next turn Tonda duresses me once more. I blindly reveal Top and since now it was all going in my favor. I assemble the combo, counter his Wretch via Goyf and few turns later I gloriously won with an Enforcer backup.

-----

Round 3, Pavel, Doran aggro

g1: ...was opened with Thoughtseize and I really hate this card. A lot.
I have tried some beats with Mongoose, which gets threshold really fast. But with all of his drops and Vindicates, I could not manage Counterbalance well. He also has a huge number of must-counters (or must-solves), be it named Vindi, Tarmogoyf, Doran, DC, Thoughtseize... and it is hard to operate under his LD suite.
I get him down to three life, but I was "A bout de souffle" and the final blow consisted in removal of my Goyf followed by his Reanimation. (Although he could kill me much sooner with Doran or better yet, with first-striking Monastery that laughs at Mongooses any time.)

Out: Geddon and crap. In: Needle, EE, Ganda (more for the CB reason...)

g2: We sculpt our positions and gently size up a situation. When I get threshold, I immediately try heavy beats - I land Enforcer with another one in SDT. He swords him. I try anotehr one. Swords. I am on thirty life and now I am in difficult situation, as I dont have any great beast remaining...
He puts down Confidant, which endured for many of turns. (In fact he ate eight his life at least.) Pavel played some Extirpates (I remember three) which took StP, Goyf and BS. (Before the game, or maybe during some fetchland, I shuffled my deck upside down, so he aligned it, at least..).
I get Werebear out and stop Pavels attack on my 22 life. (I was so tired I forgot some fetches.. all the people around just laughed when i was unable to count fetch+DC attack correctly...) But he landed Goyf, so I could not attack.
Confidant still brought him some cards and he finally get Grip against my SDT. I draw lands only and I had very little wincons left - except for the Bear, I had another one somewhere in the deck, and also one Mongoose.. the only one I did not side out. (They are bad against Doran and Goyf.. but now I see that they are at least some body.. when everything gets sworded or extirpated.))
I get EE for two but do not blow it immediately, as I had nothing in hand and I would change my two cards (EE and Bear) for his two cards (Goyf and Confi). This in fact was stupid idea. First: I change two for three/four/five.. as Confi brings him cards. Second: What if he draws Grip?
Pavel of course get the Grip. He destroyed EEs, and since now it was all over for me. I drew needles Needles only. (Which could help a lot in the early game against Wastelands, but now are of no use.)
Time was called and my only hope was that he reveals Tombstalker or two. (This is another reason why I was waiting with EEs, too..) This did not happen, so the game was draw and match was lost.

Nice tournament, indeed. It lasted for three hours and in the end I was all of a sweat. Martin took the Bayou as a price. Me and Tonda then went to pub for two lagers and additional testing. Then I pick up my girlfriend and went home, where only my high morale forced me to wash up and pray, because I nearly slept standing...

The end.


EDIT:
I am definitely taking out Armageddon, as it is outdated card and I never really wanted to see it. I would rather low my Landstill matchup by 5 %, than always find my hand clogged in mirror and against LD.
Sensei's Divining Top. Well, it was everywhere. Top in my hand, Top in cantrips, Top on the board, Top in the Top... fetch and another Top. Maybe, maybe I shall return to two-of, but IDK. Today I have too much of it, tomorrow I would not find any...
I was seriously flooded with Enforcer, too, and every opening hand with two of them is like mulligan to five. With two Bears only, it is also somehow hard to play Enforcer fast enough. But I like the additional body, better yet of his size. What is the correct number? I will stay at two.. but something like 1, 75 would be better.
I lack Needle (against Waste) and EE (Warrens..) heavily. What is better approach? Few additional beat-sticks (like 2 Bears, second Enfie), or some control Elements aka EE and Pithing Needle?
Like everyone, I am unsure of the three-mana hole in CB. But what can we play in here? (Esp. if it makes whopping number of two to four slots...) Trygon Predator? Threads of Disloyalty? Serendib Efreet? Even Krosan Grip? Dunno..
I was very very happy with my four basic lands. I can play nearly anything under Wastelands and if I build the whole semaphore, it can support even Counterbalance (though UU) or Mystic Enforcer (though cc4).

Help and criticism appreciated..

[raharu]

Yeah, I know, only douchebags quote themselves.



I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

That's why you play Dark Confidant, he's the drawengine that keeps your hand full and allows you to overextend against Aggro or draw as many disruption spells possible against Control or Combo.

Dark Confidant is essential and THE primary reason to splash black. Period.

I thought Thoughtseize > DC too, but aparently I was wrong... Twice. Anyway, is CD playable in the 5c and bw lists? I've never seen 5c play it, and most 'accepted' lists don't play it, so... What then?

[Illissius]

That would be way, way too much life loss for 5C. About all the deck would be missing at that point is Snuff Out. Then you could call it Suicide Threshold, and be correct.

[raharu]

That would be way, way too much life loss for 5C. About all the deck would be missing at that point is Snuff Out. Then you could call it Suicide Threshold, and be correct.

Most likely. I still feel compelled to test it.