[Deck] Goyf Sligh

[Mohr]

How were the Tin-Street Hooligans? I remember that back in Standard it was that when Hooligans were hitting a Signet the game was won, always. I can imagine that they have a similar effect when hitting a Vial, a Mox or a Dreadnought. However, there are a lot of decks without targets (the majority in the DTB Forum) and you already MD Krosan Grip. And without Rancor you also don't need that many creatures.

How about Magma Jet in Rancor's place? Imo Magma Jet is one of the best cards for Goyf Sligh .

Tin Street Hooligan performed well. Chalice is very popular in my area, and a common opening against Goyf Sligh is Chalice at 1. I was very fearful of that draw, and I think the number of Hooligans I played reflects that. Hooligan allows you to play right through Chalice for 1 without missing a beat. It is obviously suboptimal against most aggro decks. I think Grip main is a must so you don't scoop to Counterbalance. That combo is too prevalent not to have a realistic main deck out (beyond Fireblast).

If I were to replace the Rancors, the first card that comes to mind for me is Sudden Shock. I find Split Second to be invaluable in Legacy. I have also considered Ball Lightning as a one or two of. But again, these are very much metagame choices.

[Hanni]

With my build, I would shy away from Wild Nacatl based on the fact that I like to run 4 Price of Progress main.

I still don't understand why people assume you cannot run Price of Progress with a 3c manabase. You can easily run 4 Mountains with Wild Nacatl in the deck, and it's very possible to run more. Even if you take 2-4 damage from your own PoP, it's almost always irrelevant. The scenario where you can tap your nonbasics for RR, sac them to Fireblast, and then cast PoP happens very frequently, too.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Plateau
6 Mountain
1 Forest

If you are concerned with manabase instability due to nonbasics, the above manabase can be ran and still effectively cast everything in the deck. I prefer 4 Taiga 2 Plateau personally, but still. A 1cc 3/3 is what people have been wanting in this deck for a long time (alot of posters in earlier pages had suggested Mongoose, although obviously a bad choice), and we finally got one. Just sayin.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I still don't understand why people assume you cannot run Price of Progress with a 3c manabase.

There has been discussion along these lines in this thread about "RGW Zoo," which is basically Goyf Sligh with an additional color.

Kird Ape (the member) and I have been trying Price of Progress in a three-color list, without experiencing any problems. For reference:

//21
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
1x Skyshroud Elite
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Watchwolf
4x Woolly Thoctar

//19
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Price of Progress
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Umezawa's Jitte

//20
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Taiga
2x Mountain
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plateau
1x Plains

This deck boasts access to the best spells across three colors, several of which are considerable upgrades to what straight R/G aggro decks have to work with. Wild Nacatl has already been highlighted (and yes, it is awesome), but Watchwolf, Woolly Thoctar, and Swords are also welcome. Each is more powerful than the card(s) it replaces.

The manabase is designed to be flexible enough to minimize the damage from Price of Progress when it's relevant (which is honestly not very often), while still giving you reliable access to all three colors of mana. In fact, the mana works well enough that you can afford to play a set of Horizon Canopies, despite their less-than-stellar interactions with Price of Progress and Wild Nacatl.

[hugh1130]

I'd think keldon marauders would get in on average for more damage then watch wolf but those 4 slots in total id rather have as burn ( fireblast/magma jet ).

Harizon canopy doesn't work for me either, I'd rather have 2 more Savannah and 2 more taigas.

And as an interesting thought exercise, i wonder really what the net life loss of caused by StP is over some other burn spell, prob incinerate/magma jet, honestly I think there may be something to suggesting that killing things with StP that you coudln't kill with burn ( only tombstalker/goyf/exalted/dreadnaught comes to mind) might end up hurting the plan of going from 20-0 in the quickest possible manner.\

[Swing4Five]

Having a Tarmogoyf sitting in the way of your X/3's is a lot more detrimental to your gameplan than a lack of 2-4 more damage to the opponenets dome.

...and the "only" threats that you list includes "only" 3 of the most played threats in the format at the moment.

[Mohr]

If I were to splash a third color I would much prefer black, thereby gaining access to Dark Confidant and Terminate. But maybe I'm undervaluing the Wild Nacatl.

[Swing4Five]

I believe the logic is:

Terminate < Swords

and

Confidant < Nacatal + Watchwolf + Thoctar

[Hanni]

Kird Ape (the member) and I have been trying Price of Progress in a three-color list, without experiencing any problems.

I'm glad you agree.

Wild Nacatl has already been highlighted (and yes, it is awesome),

I'm glad you agree with that as well.

Everything else.

As far as Thoctar and StP are concerned, I think those are fantastic cards for Zoo. Jitte too. In Goyf Sligh though, all 3 of those cards are either too slow or detrimental to the fundamental gameplan.

If I were to splash a third color I would much prefer black, thereby gaining access to Dark Confidant and Terminate. But maybe I'm undervaluing the Wild Nacatl.

Dark Confidant is horrible for the gameplan of Goyf Sligh, and Terminate is better off being a burn spell. If you're talking about splashing black for a Zoo shell, white is still better because of the better creatures it offers (i.e Nacatl and Thoctar).

[Tao]

Dark Confidant is horrible for the gameplan of Goyf Sligh, and Terminate is better off being a burn spell.

Come on. This is ridiculous. Drawing extra burn spells and beating for 2 suits perfectly into the gameplan. Stop saying everything except for the exact cards of your decklist does not understand the gameplan of Goyf Sligh. That game plan is not so hard to understand! Cards like FoD or Confi may be open for discussion but saying that Confidant is horrible is just 100% wrong.

[jazzykat]

I'm going to quote myself because I think that a fast naught pwns game 1 and you are going to be using either 2 cards to kill a goyf or some combination of them blocking your goyf + lavamang. I think this substitution is very meta specific but Dreadstill is getting awfully popular in general.

I was going to point out that trouble with opposing goyfs can be mitigated by Snuff Out and 1 or 2 black duals (granted that you will weaken your manabase), but if you are having trouble with Tombstalker...good luck. The only efficient thing I can think of is swords and that is totally not keeping with your tempo plan or manabase.

[Mohr]

With the list I posted above, I was much more concerned with the Counterbalance part of Naught, rather than the Naught itself.

I still believe that Confidant is superior to Swords and Wild Nacatl. But, as with everything, it is up to debate. The fact that almost no player worth his or her salt will allow Confidant to stay on the board for even a single turn shows his significance in the format.

[kensook]

If you are concerned with naughts, we can always use Shattering Spree or Krosan Grip, both of which are mostly immune to counters. We don't need creature removal spells in this deck, as a burn card would be better.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'd think keldon marauders would get in on average for more damage then watch wolf but those 4 slots in total id rather have as burn ( fireblast/magma jet ).

Keldon Marauders is a laughably terrible card. Watchwolf isn't exactly broken itself, but it easily out performs a creature with the same stats that self-destructs after a single attack.

Harizon canopy doesn't work for me either, I'd rather have 2 more Savannah and 2 more taigas.

It doesn't "work" for you? What does that mean? I guess I'll just quote myself from the Zoo thread:

Horizon Canopy is amazing for Zoo because it helps turn excess land into business spells. One of the major problems with the archetype is that it suffers from manaflood as a game progresses. This is because it has to have enough lands to consistently curve out in the first three turns (this is even more important with the printing of Woolly Thoctar), but cannot afford to offset this with lands that have abilities other than tapping for mana (things like Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, and even Barbarian Ring). Thus, in every game, a full third of your library becomes virtually blank as soon as you draw your third land.

Horizon Canopy easily slots into a RGW manabase without negatively affecting your ability to access all three colors of mana. The benefit is that when you draw your fourth land in a game, if any of those lands are Horizon Canopies, what was a blank draw instead becomes a new draw (and one that will probably be a non-land card). This makes a huge difference in close games, since trading a land for a burn spell or an extra creature is just like drawing an extra card right when you need it.

The life you lose to Canopy is the only cost associated with playing it, and is very rarely problematic. Zoo is one of the most aggressive decks in the format, so few decks are capable of profitably applying pressure to its life total.

Honestly, I would play Horizon Canopies in this deck even if I wasn't splashing white.

And as an interesting thought exercise, i wonder really what the net life loss of caused by StP is over some other burn spell, prob incinerate/magma jet, honestly I think there may be something to suggesting that killing things with StP that you coudln't kill with burn ( only tombstalker/goyf/exalted/dreadnaught comes to mind) might end up hurting the plan of going from 20-0 in the quickest possible manner.\

Swords usually makes up for its drawback the same turn you play it. Sure, they might gain 4-5 life off of that Tarmogoyf you just sent farming, but that play should let you attack for 6-9 damage, when you otherwise wouldn't have been able to.

Of course, you won't always have such a well-developed board position, but you're opponent won't always be able to replace his blocker immediately, either. The amount of damage a Swords "deals" increases each turn the opponent passes without making another Tarmogoyf.

Please don't misunderstand me. If there was another removal spell comparable to Swords that didn't give your opponent life points, it would certainly be a better choice for this deck. However, there isn't (Terminate is almost as good, but it costs twice as much and is in the wrong color), and Swords is still amazing, despite the drawback.

As far as Thoctar and StP are concerned, I think those are fantastic cards for Zoo. Jitte too. In Goyf Sligh though, all 3 of those cards are either too slow or detrimental to the fundamental gameplan.

Huh? How would you describe the fundamental gameplan of these decks? How would you differentiate the two? The opening post of this thread states that, "Goyf Sligh is a traditional RG beats deck – little men and burn. The deck aims to play a critter on turn 1 and possibly turn 2, sneak in some combat damage, and then finish with burn spells to the dome."

That sounds like a Zoo deck, to me. Actually, it sounds like any red-based aggro deck. The only difference is that R/G aggro traditionally benefits from being able to play Price of Progress, while more colorful variants do not. Now that we are playing PoP in three-color decks, I'm left wondering why anyone would want to limit themselves to two colors.

I have already made the case for Swords being in the deck, and why it is not "detrimental" to the game plan.

As for Woolly Thoctar, I'm genuinely confused when it is called "too slow." There were similar reactions in the Zoo thread, but they made no more sense there. A 5/4 for three mana is a fantastic threat, and one that Legacy aggro decks have been sorely lacking up until now. He gets around Counterbalance, attacks into Tarmogoyfs, and is generally an incredibly efficient source of damage. Yes, he sits at the top of an ultra-low mana curve, but he isn't outside of it. What do you usually do on a typical third turn? Woolly Thoctar is very often going to be better.

The inclusion of Umezawa's Jitte is a different sort of argument. The card pushes your deck further towards creature beatdown, and away from direct damage, which is a major design decision for any red-based aggro deck. In fact, the above quote from this thread's opening post seems to indicate a very small creature base (aiming to play a critter on turn one and "possibly turn two"), but most of the lists in this thread are obviously built to play creatures well beyond the second turn. Now, because of the power of Jitte and the efficiency of creatures, I believe that running the card is worth sacrificing some burn slots. However, I could be wrong. I do miss Fireblast.

[Hanni]

Huh? How would you describe the fundamental gameplan of these decks? How would you differentiate the two? The opening post of this thread states that, "Goyf Sligh is a traditional RG beats deck – little men and burn. The deck aims to play a critter on turn 1 and possibly turn 2, sneak in some combat damage, and then finish with burn spells to the dome."

That sounds like a Zoo deck, to me. Actually, it sounds like any red-based aggro deck. The only difference is that R/G aggro traditionally benefits from being able to play Price of Progress, while more colorful variants do not. Now that we are playing PoP in three-color decks, I'm left wondering why anyone would want to limit themselves to two colors.

The way I've always categorized the differences is that Goyf Sligh has a much lower creature and a much larger burn count. The deck can essentially play the burn role, and only intends on playing a creature or two within the first few turns (not stating that this is always the case, just stating that this is the ideal). Goyf Sligh aims to do the bulk of damage to the opponent via burn.

Zoo, on the other hand, aims to do the bulk of its damage with creature beats. Thusly, Zoo runs a higher creature count and less burn. Since Zoo obviously wants to drop creatures throughout the entirety of the game, creatures like Woolly Thoctar and equipment like Umezawa's Jitte is ideal. StP is also a logical choice since it helps the smaller creatures get through massive guys like Goyf and Stalker. Zoo cannot directly switch over to a burn gameplan if the ground gets stalled, and StP becomes justifiable.

However, this is just my interpretation of the two. I could very easily be wrong in my observations. I would like to point out that I did in fact try Woolly Thoctar and several other cards when I was playtesting Goyf Sligh intensively, and ultimately decided that Thoctar was too slow for me; by the time Thoctar finally got to start swinging (turn 4+), I almost always perferred to just topdeck burn because my opponent was already in burn range. I do not like StP in Goyf Sligh, I do not like Rancor, and I do not like Jitte. My perspective on the issue is just my opinion on the matter, and I will not attempt to convince you otherwise.

[Ghoulax]

Having read the last 4 pages of this thread I think that there are some things I'd like to say.

First, regarding the discussion of wether to use Lavamancer or Fantastic, I would say BOTH.
They are two different cards that do too many different things. Lavamancer is great in mid-late game and it helps you with 2 or 3 shocks to your opponents head from time to time.

Mogg Fanatic (or fantastic) is the most incredible 1 drop in the history of red. Just that.
He can beat, take down 2/2's and help taking down bigger guys, and he can throw himself to the face of the guy across the table.

My list includes 4 Mogg Fanatic, and 3 Grim Lavamancer, and with it a friend of mine won the Legacy Open at my National Championship (I was playing in it so I borrowed him the deck).

Figure of Destiny is a great addition to this deck because it helps when you haven't killed the other guy by the 5th or 6th turn. And it is a "guy you must kill" for your opponent. It is mana intensive, but it is worth it.

And please... Don't try to transform this deck into a Zoo Deck. Open a different thread and post lists of Zoo. GoyfSligh is a perfect deck with 4 Taigas and 1 Forest. It doesn't need white or black or purple. It works preety fine as it is.

And remember that RG Aggro Decks have been and will continue to be Metagame Decks and for that reason the build will depend on your local Meta.

Greets to all of you. Sorry if my english is not quite well, I'm a Chilean and my writing is a little rusty.

Bye. (First POst!!! :D )

[Swing4Five]

Figure of Destiny is a great addition to this deck because it helps when you haven't killed the other guy by the 5th or 6th turn. And it is a "guy you must kill" for your opponent. It is mana intensive, but it is worth it.

I'm with Hanni on this one, no thanks.

And please... Don't try to transform this deck into a Zoo Deck. Open a different thread and post lists of Zoo. GoyfSligh is a perfect deck with 4 Taigas and 1 Forest. It doesn't need white or black or purple. It works preety fine as it is.

There is no such thing as a "perfect deck" in the abstract, especially with the advent of new sets, if everyone had that mentalilty there would be no innovation (gogo gadget buzzword) in the format.

And remember that RG Aggro Decks have been and will continue to be Metagame Decks and for that reason the build will depend on your local Meta.

What? How is swing and melt your face meta-dependant? Outside of being owned by CounterTop or the abberation of needing to be able to blow up the occasional turn two 12/12 (for both of which you should have Seal and/or K Grip out of the board), this has got to be the least meta-dependant strategy out there.

Edit: Welcome to the Source

[Sims]

For reference, fellow Albany player Mike Farrell's First place list (of 58) at TMLO4 this past weekend.

Michael Farrell(1st)
4 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountains
1 Barbarian Ring

1 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
3 Keldon Mauraders
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Fireblast
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmagoyf

SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod’s Crypt

Aside from the singleton incinerate, I don't see anything wrong with this list. It's solid, does exactly what the deck is supposed to do, and doesn't give itself up to the possibility of opposing mana denial by running more than the two required colors to play anything else cute.

Thoughts?

[Hoojo]

Aside from the singleton incinerate, I don't see anything wrong with this list. It's solid, does exactly what the deck is supposed to do, and doesn't give itself up to the possibility of opposing mana denial by running more than the two required colors to play anything else cute.

Thoughts?

The list looks exactly how you described; solid and focused. Any chance of a tournament report? I would like to see notes on how Figure of Destiny performed. In my play I haven't been impressed but I'm open to seeing how he specifically affect games.

21 land seems like a lot, particularly since he only runs 3 Fireblasts. I'm curious how many CounterTops he ran into and how he dealt with them when running no Krosan Grips main; scoop and board?

[Swing4Five]

Splashing a color for a creature isn't very inovative.

If you 're really thinking that nacatl excuses the splash - you failed.
White has nothing else to offer to the deck.
Really do as you were told if you want to play white - play zoo.

Most deck changes aren't huge awe-inspiring groundbreaking tech, in fact there really isn't anything groundbreaking in this type of strategy since Sligh was invented. The deck has the same gameplan, only due to power creep the creatures are bigger and the burn is more efficient.

Now the discussion here is exactly which combination of these newer low-cost/high-power creatures and efficient burn spells is best suited to today's environment.

The only real distinction between the Zoo and Sligh archetypes is that Zoo generally uses a more dudes than Sligh, I suppose you could try and split hairs on where exactly that line lays, but that's mostly just semantics. Obfuscate Freely has in fact cross-posted from the zoo thread, as the discussion bridges both archetypes.

There has been discussion along these lines in this thread about "RGW Zoo," which is basically Goyf Sligh with an additional color.

The Goyf Sligh name just comes from the fact that someone splashed green for the best cost/power ratio creature ever. Additionally splashing white for more of the type of creature Sligh likes to play, and incidentally picking up the best removal spell in the format along the way doesn't seem like "nothing" to me.

Of course all of this, which/what-number-of creatures/burn/colors is very debatable. That is in fact the point of these forums, healthy deck design debate, not starting empty flame wars, talking to people like they're idiots, and telling posters to "do what they are told" [snip - PR].

On the topic of TMLO4 list, It is looks very solid, but I as well am curious about the singleton Incinerate, the 3 Keldon Marauders, and how the Kithkin preformed throughout the day.

[Ghoulax]

The decklist shown in the top 8 of TMLO04 is the same list that I'm running here in Chile except for that single Incinerate wich is an extra marauder, since last year.

What can I tell you from my little experience?... Well, I've been playing the deck online and with my friends that are going to the Worlds this year and I've found it solid as a rock. Figure of Destiny is a goofy dude during the first 2 or 3 turns but from there it can become a real menace as you can just keep pumping it. And what is the best in this??... That you can do it EOT and not ruinning your gameplan.

The deck is very tight and even though it doesn't have maindeck responses to Top or 'Naught those matches are not as complicated as I thought in the past. Pre SB against Dreadstill is about 65% in favor of GoyfSligh, because that deck only runs 4 menaces for you, and you run like 20 for it. Just a 2nd turn Naught is a GG for Goyfsligh (GS), if that is not the case the match is very good for GS. Regarding the counter/top is GG since the moment in hits the table. I don't think it's anything more to say about it. Krosan Grip is the card for it.

The sideboard is what I expected it to be in todays metagame. Mine was different considering that here goblins and Affinity are abundant and the metagame is quite unstable, but always keeping up with the new decks showing up in Deckcheck or here.

For me FoD is real good because it help GS with mid and late game, and I really believe that Nacatl doesn't belong here because it would make the manabase more vulnerable to Wastelands and Stifle. And you'll get more damage from your own PoP, the best burn printed since the silver age of magic.


Greets to you all.