[OLD] UGw Threshold

[mackaber]

@Fetchland debate: The biggest problem I see with running a lot of fetches and few fetch targets is that against decs sporting both wasteland and sinkhole you will be in for a rough ride since they can often completly deny you of a color come lategame. Which will lead to you loosing, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

@Nocco: I'm currently running a list 2 or 3 cards of of yours and I very much agree with the changes you have made. Both Enforcer and Predict are the suckors and Trygon and Spell Snare are incredibly powerful tools in the current metagame. I'd definetly play the O-Ring over EE and I'd try to incorporate at least one needle in te main dec, you'll need it and rarely regret having it.

@SPOD-Crew: Have you guys tested Spell-Snare main? I really feel like it's needed and cutting Predict has never pained me.

[spirit of the wretch]

@SPOD-Crew: Have you guys tested Spell-Snare main? I really feel like it's needed and cutting Predict has never pained me.

First of all, I don't play Grow/w (I play Grow/r), but Predict hasn't been really great for me, too (actually I cut it from my latest list). Clemens (DiF) thinks so, too, but the problem with Spell Snare is actually its CC. It's our aim to optimize the mana curve of the deck for CB and we feel the deck needs more CC2 and CC3 cards instead of more CC1. Apart from the CC, Spell Snare is a really powerful card, especially because it counters opposing CBs on the draw.

[Cenarius]

I still don't see why people would remove the predicts mainboard. UGw Threshold is the most controllish build there could be of all the Threshold list's. Predict is thé late game card there is for the deck. It is the only card that gives Cardadvantage (ofc you can include Counterbalance), removing the card will give you a disadvantage over the other Threshold lists including other agro-control lists.
I think Threshold is such a deck that you can have cards whatever you like and cards that will always be certain (Goyf, Fow, Brainstorm etc.). There is no build that is the most optimal one, if your feelings say it is a good build then you must play the build you want.
I like to play UGw Threshold as the more controllish builds of Threshold, so I decide to include 3 Predict's in it. If I decide to go a bit more agressive I can switch to 4c Threshold (a list from Nijmegen: to be seen at UGB threshold) because I believe it's the best Agro-Control list (overall in our metagame). UGw Threshold has the emphasis on Control, while UGr Canadian Thresh or Black Thresh has the emphasis on Agro.
To not completely make this post useless; today I will test Predator's after peedle's and 16 lands. Could people who do play 16 lands show test results aswell? Like: Howmany hands with 1 land, 2 land, Howmany cantrips in starting hand, top 3 draws from library.
I think if we all put a little bit of effort, we can decide whether strictly speaking: 16 land + 1 cantrip or 17 lands and 8 cantrips is better.

[raharu]

So, with all this discontent with Nimble Mongoose, a desire to play more cards at 2cc for Counterbalance, and White's emphasis on the control role, why not try Meddling Mage? All things considered, it's the best option, as you aren't going to find a better one-drop than Nimble Mongoose in the entire game of Magic, and you aren't going to find a large beater in the 2cc slot outside of Grunt, which has already been considered, a Utility creature is going to be your best bet, and Mage is your best Utility creature.

[raharu]

Except that mage works best only in a format dominated by aggro-control and control and combo. It is extremely poor against aggro. (To a certain limit, mongoose do decently against aggro)

Like this one? What aggro. There isn't any aggro.

Also, Meddling Mage on Tombstalker works.

Something like this?

18 lands

Counter "Wall": 11
Daze x3
Counterbalance x4
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 11
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4

Creatures: 10
Tarmogoyf x4
Meddling Mage x4
Mystic Enforcer x2

Assorted Odds and Ends: 10
Pithing Needle x2
Swords to Plowshares x4
Back to Basics x4

Or something. Mage Chants:

Wrath of God, Krosan Grip, Manlands, Wastelands, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Tombstalker, Stifle, Sinkhole, Life from the Loam, Burning/ Cunning Wish, Orim's Chant...

The list goes on forever. The format (to me at least) seems rife with targets.

[Jaiminho]

Or something. Mage Chants:

(...) Manlands, Wastelands (...)

As Meddling Mage comes into play, name a nonland card.
The named card can't be played.

The list goes on forever. The format (to me at least) seems rife with targets.

The question is not how many powerful cards there are to stop, but if it can actually stop anything successfully. In the end, all of your creatures will still be vulnerable to spot removal unless you name spot removal and mass removal unless you name mass removal. Too many things to stop in a single deck means Mage is going to have little to no effect.

[raharu]

The question is not how many powerful cards there are to stop, but if it can actually stop anything successfully. In the end, all of your creatures will still be vulnerable to spot removal unless you name spot removal and mass removal unless you name mass removal. Too many things to stop in a single deck means Mage is going to have little to no effect.

Counterbalance?

Yeah... Non-land. I knew that. Fine, fuck Stifle. Pithing Needle fills in the land-hate holes anyway. It seems like the Mage + Back to Basics list has the tools to beat up on pretty much anything. Aside from a lolSHIT BLOW UP EVERYTHING button, it doesn't lack any answers. Spot removal, slow-down mechanisms (B2B, CB), a solid Counter-base to keep everything together early... Like, we're a few FoF/ Standstills and Nevin's Disks/ Wraths away from MUC or Landstill... I have GOT to get Mages.

[Cenarius]

Could anyone give (good) arguments why (UGw) Threshold should have 2 Trygon Predator's or even more in Mainboard?

I thought about Meddling Mage in Mainboard. It is not good enough anymore. The metagame two years ago was totally different. Even if Meddling Mage have good target's, it is still not good enough. Perhaps Meddling Mage is good for Sideboard, but I doubt whether you want to board it often. This is because Threshold already consists of many cards that are fine or good against every matchup. Perhaps Meddling Mage is not needed anymore..

[Shugyosha]

Could anyone give (good) arguments why (UGw) Threshold should have 2 Trygon Predator's or even more in Mainboard?

I thought about Meddling Mage in Mainboard. It is not good enough anymore. The metagame two years ago was totally different. Even if Meddling Mage have good target's, it is still not good enough. Perhaps Meddling Mage is good for Sideboard, but I doubt whether you want to board it often. This is because Threshold already consists of many cards that are fine or good against every matchup. Perhaps Meddling Mage is not needed anymore..

Balance fullfills the job of Mage and sits in the same slot.
Trygon Predator adds more cmc 3 for the balance curve which is better than cmc 4 of Enforcer. As the deck can keep things under control pretty good, one of the flyers will stick and fly over the stalled board even if his ability is dead. But he will find targets especially in difficult matchups. Being able to pitch is huge and people often underestimate this.
Predator is mostly not a "whoah!!" card but it has many little advantages over other cards. Same holds true for other cmc 3 flyers in my opinion like Vendilion Clique or Kira. Its a meta call which to play. Kira is good in a removal/red heavy environment, Clique is good in a control environment. Predator, well an opponent's Counterbalance is one big reason, there are many others.

[raharu]

Balance stops Tombstalker and Krosan Grip?

[hugh1130]

so pretty new to the deck, played white stax for a long time so trying to get into a different mentality

list. the deck isnt completely finished so alot of slots will change

total -17
3 Tropical Islands
2 Tundra
3 Flooded Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Islands
1 Forest
1 Plains

orginally the plan was to cut an Island for the 8th fetch but I dont know anymore

total - 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

werebear instead of goyf cause i dont own the goyfs yet, trickle replacement, i like the Predators and they are really a meta call.. i end up seeing alot of epic painter/dreadstill and they help

total - 26
3 Tops
3 counter balance
4 Forces
4 Dazes
4 Brainstorms
4 Ponders
4 Swords

pretty standard

Total- 7
3 Oblivion Rings
2 Predicts
1 Enlightend Tutor
1 Pithing Needle/Relic of Progenius

i alternate between the relic and needle on any give day.. considering worship in the needle/relic spot to cause of lots of random decks i see

Side

3 Grip
3 Teeg
3 Submerge
1 Trygon Predator
2 back to basics
1/2 Pithing Needle
1/2 Relic of Progenius

so thoughts on the list would be helpfull

but yah, my specific questions are on matchups.. Team america type things and dreadstill/epic painter and agro loam

those are the decks i have to most problems,

[PowrDragn]

Anyone have an idea of what a future list looks like post-Conflux, since we can play 8 StP?

[hugh1130]

Anyone have an idea of what a future list looks like post-Conflux, since we can play 8 StP?

i wouldn't play 8 swords

honestsly before you ask this question, you have to ask is Path to exile even a playable card...

[edit] on second thought, if team american keeps getting more popular, id run 8 cause they have an awfully low amount of threats

[Cenarius]

@ hugh1130

You should try this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Predict
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Ponder

1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining top

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

When you play UGw Threshold, you atleast have to play B2B. The card really kicks ass against a lot of Matchup's and against some Matchup's it means a win immediately if timed well.
Personally I don't like Pithing Needle in Mainboard so much, so I changed it to cards who cán change the board. It's just personal. Perhaps u do want to play Pithing Needle.

@ PowrDragn

I personally doubt wheter playing 8 Stp's in Mainboard is really that good. Maybe 2 could be put in sideboard, but on the other hand: you don't really got space for that. If you play B2B you already have answers against TA.

[BackDr0p]

I too am new the the UGW Threshold variant. Unlike UGR Tempo, which I play regularly, this version requires resolving threats/ getting Counter + Top online to protect them.

The list that I am currently playing is based on Der_imaginäre_Freund list:

61 Cards

// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Forest
    2 Island 
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Plains 

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Nimble Mongoose
    3 Trygon Predator

// Counter Magic
    3 Daze
    1 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will

// Removal
    4 Swords to Plowshares

// Utility (Tutor Tool Box)
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Engineered Explosives     
    1 Pithing Needle 
    1 Relic of Progenitus

// Counter + Top
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance

// Draw
    2 Predict
    3 Ponder
    1 Portent
    4 Brainstorm  
 
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Hydroblast

Card Choice:

Trygon Predator:
I've frankly been impressed w/ Trygon Predator. The fact that he can completely turn a game in your favor is the number one reason to run him. Getting rid of problematic things like the opponents Counter Balance, Chalice, Survival and Trinisphere. It also brings my CMC count to 5. As Der_imaginäre_Freund previously stated:

Random Utility is always nice, However, the loss of Pithing Needle's speed hurts.

I completely agree with you. As a result, I decided to compromise and run a needle as a 1 of. Stopping Vial/Survival/Grindstone and occasionally preventing your opponent from fetching (e.i: with Back To Basics on the field).


3 Daze / 1 Counterspell:
Having Daze as a four of would be great but, late game when "Countering target spell unless its controller pays .", has little or no impact on spells controllers game plan. Hence the reason why a single Counterspell is to be played main deck. This would not be a problem if WotC would print a split card combining the two.

The only cool thing about Daze is that w/ an Engineered Explosives (or any CMC spell for that matter) in hand turn 2 and if you've failed to get your second land drop, you can tap your land for , or cast EE for 0, play daze returning your land to your hand, play the land, then tap it for mana casting your Counter Balance or other CMC spell. This is really situational but when it happens it is always nice.

Daze can also protect your lands from wasteland, sinkholes, vindicate, Devastating Dreams, etc., but you guys already know this.

Relic of Progenitus:
Relic main deck is a must, since around here I see lots of Aggro Loam//Rock-ish Survival builds. Once they get their engine online it's pretty much impossible for me to stop it in time. it's also fun to get rid of some reoccurring threats. It may not stop them completely, but at least it will slow them down enough so that I can find better answers. Relic may seem anti-synergistic in threshold, but it's occasional use are worth. This is a meta slot.

Engineered Explosives:
EE is another situational card which really shines when getting rid of enemy Counterbalance's. Being able to dodge CB is a plus.

Sideboard:

The single Dueling Grounds is to be fetched, w/ E. Tutor. Helping me versus: Goblin's, Merfolk, Ichorid (If I live to see turn 3) and other random aggro. Goyf usually ending up being the fattest creature on the field.

The P. Needle, Relic of P. and EE, when paired w/ E. Tutor end up being "virtual" 3 of's.

The rest is pretty standard.

The only questions I have is playing against Land Still. They run more removal than I run threats, they play Goyf, they play more counter magic and also run CB + Top. I usually end up winning G1 w/ a well timed B2B. G2 however, is a different story. They fetch their basics and win. Any boarding strategies/ suggestions on how to play this matchup?

[b4r0n]

Alright, so multiple people now have suggested Relic of Progenitus in Threshold. This seems like one of the most terrible ideas that I've heard suggested in this thread, and probably on these forums. Relic is a tool for fighting Tarmogoyfs if you don't run your own. If you want to hate on graveyards, run Tormod's Crypt. So, since Threshold relies on Tarmogoyfs and creatures with Threshold, running Relic seems like one of the worst possible choices you could make with this deck.

Hell, you should expect people to be bringing them in against you. So once again: Relic is absolutely terrible in Threshold. There's no reason to run it.

[bowvamp]

What is the general opinion on Knight of the Reliquary? I am not a long term Threshold player, but from playing it (Threshold) alot it seems very useful in Thresh.

[ParkerLewis]

The only cool thing about Daze is that w/ an Engineered Explosives (or any CMC spell for that matter) in hand turn 2 and if you've failed to get your second land drop, you can tap your land for , or cast EE for 0, play daze returning your land to your hand, play the land, then tap it for mana casting your Counter Balance or other CMC spell. This is really situational but when it happens it is always nice.

Not only is it not nice (I don't see how wasting two very powerful cards can ever be), it's also a few orders of magnitude more than situational. You have to be stuck on one land, you have to have the one and only 0 cmc card in your deck (the usually singleton EE), AND you have to have a Daze. And also, not have anything like a Ponder of Brainstorm that would be here again orders of magnitude better to play.

What's the probability of that ? Like 5 % simply to meet the EE + Daze prerequisities ? Probability that drops to what, less than 1 % to also meet the mana screw + no Ponder / BS ? How did you even keep a hand like that, anyway ?

Certainly that's NOT "the only cool thing about Daze".

What is the general opinion on Knight of the Reliquary? I am not a long term Threshold player, but from playing it (Threshold) alot it seems very useful in Thresh.

Hmm, if this is the new 3cc critter that gains +1/+1 for every land in your gy, i'd say the card lacks some sort of evasion. I mean, it's either overcosted compared to tarmogoyf, or simply not standing the comparison with enforcer at 4cc. Point is, if you have a slot for another creature besides Tarmogoyf and Mongeese, Enforcer is clearly better.

[dr.knockers]

I played this list for ages:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

It play's really solid. the only thing i would currently change might be the 3 engineered explosives. Maybe for MD peedles or something. Furthermore i think predict is outdated. You have 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 3 tops. You really don't need predict in that case, not for the threshold and not for the cardadvantage. I would choose spell snares over predicts any day.

[Omega]

Yea, knight of reliquary might not make it into ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (although i will definately test it). I hate how the card is graveyard dependant. We already have mongoose and 1-2 mystic enforcer. The deck needs more creature that can survive after a relic of progeniture (Tarmogoyf can still grow faster than mongoose, who needs 7 cards)

I think
4 geese
4 goyfs
2 mystic enforcer
2 trygon predator

are going to be my boys in my next version