[DTB] Vial Goblins

[neon_havoc]

Why only 3 Piledrivers?

[GoldenCid]

Why only 3 Piledrivers?

I wish ran 4 but if feel confortable with just 3. However 3 is not a bad number considering i run 4 matron and 4 ringleader.

[FoulQ]

@ GoldenCid Not a fan of the list, perhaps just because it is so unorthodox. Have you ever played goblin king? Let me give you a classic example, vs ugr thresh.

You: "I attack with my 4 mountainwalk goblins ftw"
Him: "Bolt your king and screw you over gg"
You: "Oh god"

3 Ports? 21 lands? It has been discussed quite extensively earlier in the thread that 23 is a good number, sometimes 22, but 21 is stretching (in monored). I realize that a lot of decks on deckcheck are playing lower land counts, so if you are going by statistics alone maybe 21 is fine. And 3 ports?

And 3 piledrivers, I disagree here. I can understand in some 3c or black builds, but piledriver is important for explosiveness in the deck.

Also just my opinion but I wouldn't even bother with sb chalices in monored. You will lose to combo anyways. Mantis said earlier that there is a 25% chance to play combo in t8, but neon_havoc seems to be a new player so I think the goal should be to just t8. And I believe that king is the most misunderstood card ever. It is bad against plague, it is bad against decks with mountains, it. is. bad. There are so many better things you could be playing in that slot (same for pyromancer really) like a fourth incinerator, a tinkerer, a fourth piledriver, etc.

@ Tacosnape: Agreed, it pains me to cut incinerators down so much in monored builds, but in metagames infested with goyf and without the tools to splash, maindeck relics are really helpful. I did it for a while. What you don't mention in your list is rbg, which I think is important, because as nickrit2000 pointed out a trillion pages back (more like 20) it gives you engineered explosives. Is anybody but me still playing that card?

[GoldenCid]

@FoulQ: Ok. I'll make my changes....

Does blood moon serves for anything here??

[gamegeek2]

Does blood moon serves for anything here??

I would rather have a Magus, since it can be Vialed into play. Sure, it's more easily killed, but its ability protects itself. And if they're using removal on Magus, that's removal that your Goblins aren't taking. And it's far from one-sided - while it by itself is mana denial, it invalidates your other mana denial - Wasteland and Port. It also denies you your splash color, if you have one.

[Nihil Credo]

The best Goblin-related notion I've read in the last few months has been Eldariel's recommendation to play a minimum of 23 and optimally 24 lands. I took the mono-R, the R/w and the R/g/b lists I have and upped them to 24 lands, and the power increase was amazing.

You should all try that. Mana screw is a lot more dangerous than mana flood in a deck with 3 SGC and up to 8 "Ringleaders" (and 9 in Rgb since I also play a Wort in there). And the two scariest word in a Goblin player's tournament report, right after "Lackey connects", are "curving out".

[Zinch]

I agree with you Nihil, I always hated mana screw on goblins and very few times felt mana flooded realy (you can draw a lot of mana, but if you have the ringleaders, matrons or SGC, you'll be happy), so I adviced to increase the number of lands. I play mono red for personal preferences and metagame issues (a lot of wasteland and stifle) so I play 23 (without fetches), but when I played 2 or even 3 colors, I tried 24 lands and was a lot better than 23

[Tacosnape]

Hey Tacosnape could i see your mono-colored list ?
:>

Sure. Mine's pretty straightforward.

14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3-4 Stingscourger, depending on my mood.
2 Siege-Gang Commander
0-1 Goblin Sharpshooter, depending on my mood.

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Chalice of the Void

EDIT: It's also worth noting that sometimes I just say fuck combo and run the risk of it. In this case, my last seven slots change based on the meta to some combination of Blasts, Needles, Tinkerers, etc.

SECOND EDIT: I also get away with running only 22 lands because A. My manabase is hard to touch, and B. I run 4 Gempalms and the cycling makes a difference.

[zulander]

You should all try that. Mana screw is a lot more dangerous than mana flood in a deck with 3 SGC and up to 8 "Ringleaders" (and 9 in Rgb since I also play a Wort in there).

I'm not very familiar with goblins, what do you mean by "8" ringleaders?

[Tacosnape]

I'm not very familiar with goblins, what do you mean by "8" ringleaders?

This is implying Matron, I'm guessing, as Matron turns into a Ringleader quite often.

[zulander]

This is implying Matron, I'm guessing, as Matron turns into a Ringleader quite often.

That's what I thought too, although I didn't know if he was referring to a new goblin that was printed or something since I don't really know much about the new goblins.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, I meant Matron with it.

@Taco: Why run the crappy Pyrostatic Pillar when you could be running 4 Thorn of Amethyst in there? The slight extra vulnerability to Spree/Rebuild (only partial because they cost 4 mana) is more than compensated by Thorn's superiority when it's the only anti-combo card in play (and by the lessened vulnerability to Hull Breach, too), as well as by its superior versatility.

[GreenOne]

Wow, 34 Goblins. You surely have the best ringleaders ever, but are the Incinerators worth the slots? are them killing that many dudes in your meta? No Goyf/TS/Dreadnough there?

[Eldariel]

Wow, 34 Goblins. You surely have the best ringleaders ever, but are the Incinerators worth the slots? are them killing that many dudes in your meta? No Goyf/TS/Dreadnough there?

With all the nonsense in modern Cbalance decks (think Sower, Trygon, Werebear, Confidant, etc.) Gempalm is actually surprisingly solid nowadays. Also, crap like Elves is abound - I love 3 Gempalms and actually play them over Fantastics just because cantripping removal isn't, and has never been fair.

[FoulQ]

I'm just curious about some 3c builds that you all might have. I'm trying to follow Eldariel's suggestion of at least 24 lands, but I'm having difficulties doing that and keeping some of the classic cards at a respectable count. Here are the cards that could feasibly be cut in my 23 land build:

4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Warren Weirding
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

So I need to cut at least one to get up to 24 lands. Honestly I'm thinking about cutting an incinerator because my meta is basically goyf, although gempalm + wort is very exciting synergy.

@ Nihil: I may not be an expert, but the fact is pillar is in a lot more deckcheck lists than thorn. I know that's a guiding factor for me when deciding between two similar pieces of combo hate.

[from Cairo]

Mana screw is a lot more dangerous than mana flood in a deck with 3 SGC and up to 8 "Ringleaders" (and 9 in Rgb since I also play a Wort in there). And the two scariest word in a Goblin player's tournament report, right after "Lackey connects", are "curving out".

/Signed.

Been testing a Rbg build with 24 land since after the GP, and have been very happy with the mana base. Consistently curving out needs to be part of the game plan, it's unrealistic to put all the weight on getting an active Vial or Lackey.

@ FoulQ: a Fanatic or Tin Street Hooligan would probably the two cards I'd cut first.

[GoldenCid]

14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

22 Lands...i feel this number good. Sorry Nihil...

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Chalice of the Void

Why are pyrostatic pillar and chalice together?
Red elemental blast isn't healthy here??

[FoulQ]

@ FoulQ: a Fanatic or Tin Street Hooligan would probably the two cards I'd cut first.

Yes, sometimes I wish I could just cut all my fanatics and play +1 land, +1 gempalm, and then a wildcard slot. But then there is a lot of confidant and ichorid in my meta so I have never actually done it.

@ GoldenCid: It is 7 cards to fight combo. And combo is terrible TERRIBLE matchup for monored (whereas just terrible for others). So a lot of sb space is dedicated to help beat it. If you look back in the thread, tons of discussion has happened about sideboard against combo.

Another card I've been fiddling around with is extirpate. I'm just kind of obsessed with wasteland your tropical, extirpate tropical, lol gg. And if they happen to play a forest, it will be a while until they draw that windswept heath. Plus extirpate is sweet against landstill, does its job against aggro loam, and is still ok versus ichorid (I know in the ichorid thread they say it is the card they fear the least). Plus it works very well with cabal therapy.
I was just wondering if anybody has had any extensive playing with the card.

Now I realize sbs are extremely meta-dependent, but my sb looks something like this w/ extirpate...

3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Extirpate
4 Cabal Therapy (or 4 CotV)

ETA: Extirpate is terrible, do not play this card.

[from Cairo]

3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Extirpate
4 Cabal Therapy (or 4 CotV)

I've been running something similar. - 4 Cabal Therapy, -3 Extirpate; +4 CotV, +3 Earwig Squad. And have been pretty happy with it. Earwig Squad serves a similar function to Extirpate, removing a handful of cards from their deck that you don't want to deal with. I'm not sure if the trade-off of losing uncounterability and gaining a 5/3 makes it better or not. It's best in the combo match up though where that's a non-issue anyway. And it being a 5/3 can randomly be good against a resolved E Plague as well.

[b4r0n]

I've been running something similar. - 4 Cabal Therapy, -3 Extirpate; +4 CotV, +3 Earwig Squad. And have been pretty happy with it. Earwig Squad serves a similar function to Extirpate, removing a handful of cards from their deck that you don't want to deal with. I'm not sure if the trade-off of losing uncounterability and gaining a 5/3 makes it better or not. It's best in the combo match up though where that's a non-issue anyway. And it being a 5/3 can randomly be good against a resolved E Plague as well.

I've been liking Earwig Squad too. Not only is he still a fat beater against a resolved Plague, but he prevents further Plagues from coming down. The same can be said for Goyfs/Firespouts/etc. Also, unlike Extirpate, you don't have to find a way to get that card in the graveyard first.

In regards to the combo matchup: I've basically given up on it. Chalices and Pillars and Thorns can buy you time and maybe win you game 2, but you're still likely to get blown out in games 1 and 3 (barring some sort of ridiculous luck). Also, I haven't been seeing nearly as much combo recently (probably due to the high number of people playing Counterbalances), so I'd rather devote sideboard slots to beating the decks that I can reasonably hope to beat (aka the rest of the metagame).