[DTB] Vial Goblins

[true story]

I don't know about you, but getting RB on turn two in an environment with a lot of wastes/stifles (mine), especially when running 4 waste 3-4 port in RB or 4 waste and green stuff you need in RBG makes a turn two terminate somewhat unwieldy. Not to mention that has daze written all over it. StP does the same thing and for a single W which I think is somewhat easier to handle. And yes I know the next point will be that the black splash is superior but I wouldn't necessarily say that's true, especially when you end up running terminates over weirdings. I'll agree though that terminate is a good card in some metas.

I never said Terminate over Weirdings, I use both. Didn't I already say this? Oh well. Yes daze and Stifle can fuck up your plans on turn 2, but they'd fuck up anything you try to do on turn 2 anyway so whatever. I'm not gonna say Rb is better than Rw cause if I owned Plateaus I'd run Rw.

[true story]

Please, Terminate?!
T1 Lackey, T2 Weirdings does the same thing. It's tutorable. Has reduced cost with Warchief/Frogtosser in play. Goes to hand with Ringleader... Seriously, there is no reason to play Terminate instead of Weirdings.

That is so not True tory...

Terminate AND Weirdings run shit. True story. Until you at least try it don't act like I'm some dumb fuck and I don't know what I'm saying.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Does anyone play Mono-R anymore (as in no taigas or badlands)? I don't play this deck and neither do my friends, so I was just wondering. Gotta get ready for the bigger tournaments...

[Mantis]

Okay guys, I was probably wrong about Filigree Fracture. Not sure what I was thinking I guess I didn't come across Deed and Landstill in testing for a while and only faced decks with Engineered Plague giving me a wrong impression. Nailing Jitte, Top, Humility, Moat, Deed, EE and Dreadnought seems too important.

However I have given Taco's RB version some thought too. First of all, I don't think I could live without Rishadan Port as I have won so many games because of that card. I can understand the additional need for black sources with the 4 Weirding and 4 Frogtosser but I would definately not go that way at the expense of Port. Port makes the Landstill match a blowout and gives you tools to fight combo along with Chalice from the board. I see you have cut the Chalices from the board entirely and I'm not sure I approve of this switch. Chalice gives you outs to decks that are very bad matchups otherwise and you can win everything else by careful play. That said, boardspace is tight so how is Engineered Explosives working out for you and what do you board it in against?

I also don't like having only 22 lands, to me either 23 or 24 has always been the right number. With Frogtosser I suppose I would deviate towards 23 lands. Playing 22 lands does make sense without Port though, but still manaflood seems better managable than manascrew so 23 is the number for me.

With that in mind here's what I will be testing for a while:
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Taiga (bluffing Kro Grip or TSH seems better than Plateau)
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver (Piledriver seems like the best reason to start running Frogtossers, I'm confused about this)
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Engineered Explosives/Krosan Grip (will have to adjust the manabase for Grips)
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thoughtseize/Chalice of the Void

I really don't know if the curve can support cutting the Mogg Fanatics completely, so that's definately something to look into.

Also, the Frogtossers make Engineered Plague a HUGE problem, would you side them out if you expect your opponent to bring in Plagues? Or are they THAT good?

[FoulQ]

I never said Terminate over Weirdings, I use both. Didn't I already say this? Oh well. Yes daze and Stifle can fuck up your plans on turn 2, but they'd fuck up anything you try to do on turn 2 anyway so whatever. I'm not gonna say Rb is better than Rw cause if I owned Plateaus I'd run Rw.

Wow, are you drunk? My post debating the terminate idea was #2376, your post explaining that you play BOTH weirding and terminate was #2380. Yes you already said it once and then you managed to double post and say it again. I think some people assumed you cut weirdings for terminate because if you don't you are running a shit ton of removal, which apparently you are. There a billion other ways to get rid of a lone blocker for lackey on t2 other than terminate.

[Tacosnape]

@Mantis: I'd cut Frogtosser Banneret if you're going to run Port. They seriously don't like each other at all.

I'm still working on Plague solutions for RB. Frogtossers suck against Plague, obviously. My sideboard is currently:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus

Duress comes in against Plague. It's a poor answer, but sometimes you can pull it off. And at least Duress is good against a ton of other decks, also.

Thinking about possibly the fourth Driver or a Wort in place of Relic #4 to help play through a singleton Plague, too.

[FoulQ]

@ Tacosnape: I am with Mantis on this one. Wouldn't running surprise R piledrivers be one of the major benefits of x4 frogtosser? Also is there a reason for Duress over Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Thoughtseize over Duress in this deck.

[true story]

Wow, are you drunk? My post debating the terminate idea was #2376, your post explaining that you play BOTH weirding and terminate was #2380. Yes you already said it once and then you managed to double post and say it again. I think some people assumed you cut weirdings for terminate because if you don't you are running a shit ton of removal, which apparently you are. There a billion other ways to get rid of a lone blocker for lackey on t2 other than terminate.

I hardly think 3 of each qualifies as a shit ton of removal. I don't play Gempalm cause he doesn't kill big dudes and he sucks when no other Goblins are in play. Besides can you ever have to much removal? Killing shit and bashing face is how I've played every goblin deck I've had for the past 16 years... Fuck it. I was just trying to tell people how good Terminate has been to me, but since you all think I'm retarded fuck off.

No thanks. Instead of fucking off, I prefer to issue you a warning. Please post politely. No need to get our panties in a twist over Magical discussions.

-PR

[ScatmanX]

fucking off...

So, the Fracture discussion mademe think of something: Seal of Primordium.
You can drop it while their threats are not even in play (E.P., Dreadnought, Standstill), and if they want to drop them, they'll have to search for an anweser to Seal. It's better against discard, because you don't have to hold it.
Eva Gree uses it, so why don't we give it a shot?
If someone tried it already, I'd like to hear.

Edit: Patrunkenphat7, search the thread a little.
On post 2276, Nessaja posted a kick-ass MonoRed build, wich was heavly discussed.

[Tacosnape]

@ Tacosnape: I am with Mantis on this one. Wouldn't running surprise R piledrivers be one of the major benefits of x4 frogtosser? Also is there a reason for Duress over Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Thoughtseize over Duress in this deck.

The Piledrivers aren't surprises with Frogtosser, as Frogtosser doesn't give them haste. Warchief's needed for this.

You could run quad Drivers just fine, probably. I might test 3 Frogtosser and 4 Drivers. But the thing about Driver is that you can cast so many more Matrons and Ringleaders so quickly that you rarely miss having the fourth one. Additionally, Driver doesn't get any extra benefit from having two cost reducers in play. Feel free to try it out though. I'd love input on Frogtosser heavy builds.

The guy I actually want to run more of is Gempalm Incinerator. I've quickly discovered that with Frogtossers, he's actually a more viable fighting Goblin, often being a 2/1 for if they've got an empty board. Additionally, as I can often cast Siege-Gang for 2-3, his cycling ability's a little stronger.

@Thoughtseize vs. Duress:

After trying to formulate an answer, I concede it might should be Thoughtseize. Sigh. Dammit. That's expensive. Oh well. Points to you for making me think.

I face Burn a lot. Duress is better here. And in a lot of matchups (Landstill, Epic Storm, etc), I don't care about the difference. That said, in trying to argue in favor of Duress, I came up with the following advantages for Thoughtseize.

1. It might be better against Black aggro-control decks with Plague. In case there's not a Plague, I can hit the most threatening threat. The two life might be relevant here, but being able to take Confidant/Stalker/Shade/Whatever out of the hand probably offsets this.

2. It's better against Enchantress, which I face often. It would come in for Fanatic/Gempalm in this matchup, giving me eight ways to kill Argothian Enchantress.

3. It's better against Painter Stone, Cephalid Breakfast, or any combo deck built around creatures. Gives me a ton of cards to board in in these matchups, with Pyrokinesis and Thoughtseize leading the way.

So, the Fracture discussion mademe think of something: Seal of Primordium

I kind of like Seal over Grip in Goblins, actually. I like that in R/G it comes down for 2, Goblins least-crowded CMC slot, and that it can come down pre-emptively under a lot of things before you hit your fourth and fifth turns, where you want to spend your mana doing as much crazy goblin shit as possible.

That said, when I ran R/G, I actually ran a 4/3 split in favor of Seal in sideboard, as I never thought the combo match was worthwhile and wanted under no circumstances to lose to Plague/Humility/Prison/Whatever.

[FoulQ]

About the piledriver + frogtosser thing: Frogtosser gives piledriver a lot more playmates both because of the frogtosser itself and the absurd effect of 8 cost reducers. Now, I haven't tested frogtosser as much as you have, but you say yourself that you often are able to get siege-gang into play more often. I guess the "surprise" of R piledrivers is not as cool without haste, yes. That is true, but I still see many opponents shocked when they have 20 damage all of the sudden staring them down next turn. Though I see your point of only reducing his cost by 1 unlike goblins like ringleader and SGC.

[Ectoplasm]

I, also, like the seal of primordium. Goblins is, at heart, a true tempo deck based around playing more shit faster than your opponent and seal plays right into this.
It might even help against dreadstill, forcing them to spend a FoW or search for another stifle, even though I think K grip will still reign supreme in this matchup.

[scrumdogg]

Just a quick note that in a 3 color build (or 2 color with an off-splash dual) EE can also hit Plague/Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/whatever. It would also give yet another way to whack Enchantri (and friends). Gempalms seem to fall into the category of situationally good, which makes 2 seem like the correct number. You will see them relatively often & can search 'em up with a Mtron. Don't they also benefit from a Wort, being a fantastic card to recur if you have any pressure on the board?

[Tacosnape]

About the piledriver + frogtosser thing: Frogtosser gives piledriver a lot more playmates both because of the frogtosser itself and the absurd effect of 8 cost reducers. Now, I haven't tested frogtosser as much as you have, but you say yourself that you often are able to get siege-gang into play more often. I guess the "surprise" of R piledrivers is not as cool without haste, yes. That is true, but I still see many opponents shocked when they have 20 damage all of the sudden staring them down next turn. Though I see your point of only reducing his cost by 1 unlike goblins like ringleader and SGC.

Your point might be valid. I'll test out the fourth Driver again sometime this weekend and see what I come up with. Not exactly sure what I'm going to cut for it at this point. I'm still hesitant to cut Fanatic.

[Ectoplasm]

Don't they also benefit from a Wort, being a fantastic card to recur if you have any pressure on the board?

Yes, they are amazing in tandem with wort, I've won numerous games on the back of wort recurring an incinerator.
Then again, any game where wort stays alive for a turn or 2 counts as a win in my book but together with gempalm she just goes over the top. I love Wort :(

[no_chi]

I'm also in favor of Wort. I have a singleton in my deck, and rarely board her out. She's amazing when recurring Weirdings or Incinerators when the opponent is running out of answers, or Matrons and Ringleaders when looking for answers or threats of your own.

How many slots do you have in your SB for anti-Plague stuff? and how do you split them? I currently have 3 Grips and 2 Tranquil Domains, but I might try replacing the Domains with Seals.

I'm still torn between Frogtossers and Ports.

[ScatmanX]

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader or a Siege-Gang, and try to figure if it is not the same, or even better.

I guess that 5 Plague anwesers are ok. maybe a little to high, but depends how much do you face them. If it is a tutorable anweser, like R/G Liege, 3 is fine.

And I´ve been trying 23 lands with 4 Frogtosser, 4 Wastes and 2 Ports, and it´s roling perfectly. The deal is that,if you don´t draw Frogtosser, Port must be better than mountain. If you do draw them both, at least oponent will have one less mana. I wouldn´t run more than 2 Ports now, because I really just want to see 1.

[Lejay]

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader

5 ringleaders FTW ! How could I never thought about it before ?

I just won a game by rishadaning 3 lands against bant. So yes, I want to play four of them.

[leander?]

You mean you drew three Ports? When you need three ports to make it insane, he doesnt seam worth it since normally you'll just get one or maybe two.

[Ectoplasm]

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader or a Siege-Gang, and try to figure if it is not the same, or even better.

That doesn't even make sense since nobody is cutting ringleaders for Wort, SGC's sure.
I run 2 SGC's and one Wort and I love her. She seems a bit win more at first, but compared to other win-more cards like kiki she actually does something to improve your board when she's a lone topdeck, and she also brings a beefy 3/3 body with evasion.