I like it too. But to do it we gotta have a solution in the SB for problematic non-blue stuff (Runed Halo, Confinament etc).Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
It's ages I'm not playing with CoV in the MD for the 3rd duress, and never missed it. B.Wish (Grapeshot, Maelstrom Pulse, Shattering Spree) is plenty of removal for the little bad stuff people is maindecking.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I'm not packing Maelstrom Pulse. I think it's a wasted sideboard slot. I'm still deciding on what to do with the 3rd Mystical slot in my list.
It could be...
Ponder (4)
Pyroblast (1) or (2, if CoV goes)
Duress (4)
Mana? (1)
Land (12)
????(1)
Are you playing 12 lands now? So I am. But is 4 Ponder really needed ? i found 3 to be a correct number. And 2 mysticals should be enough, since 3 are going to slow up your hand a lot. Before m10,3 was acceptable because the tric with LED was just an insane shortcut to victory. Now, getting 2 in hand is suicide. You lose 2 turns.
Post your latest list, i wanna see.This is what i'm playing so far:
// Lands
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [US] Duress
1 [IA] Pyroblast
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
The only 3cc i would see in the sb could be that new white thing from m10 which gives lifegain too, only for Cb. But it's damnly slow, and i want TES to be the more speed /striaghtforward possible.
I found the sideboard above to be really good and balanced. Against artifacts , you bring Chain, Truth, Recall and a single Spree, and you have 4 maindeck solutions +1 sided,which is generally enough.
And, by the way, that MD Pyroblast is revealing to be teh nutz in my testings. Against blue decks, it is an absolute powerhouse.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
These are the slots the Mystical could be. Current list is similar to yours, 11 land, 1 cov, 3 mystical. I'm unsure what I'll do yet. I need to get a silence too.
I'd always play the 4th Ponder over the 8th disruption piece. With such a good amount of protection that 4th ponder should be able to find a protection spell for you, but also some other piece you're looking for.
We already took out an IT from the deck. Taking away a Mystical too for a protection spells doesn't make sense. I believe Ponder is the card we're looking for. It's months I'm playing it.
My list is like the lists above, with 12 lands, 4 ponders, 7 protection spells, and floating between 3/4 ITs and 2/3 Mysticals, with this SB:
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 0/1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 3/4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
I still don't know if I'm liking the IT in the SB. Do you wish for it often enough? Wish -> IT -> AdN is quite costy, and against non blue decks wishing for Diminishing Returns and playing it with 3 floating mana is usually doing the work.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
SB IT is a waste, I'm running +4x mana sources and I'm not reaching 9 mana short of 2xLED. 99% of the time, either Diminishing Returns + 3 mana floating or Empty the Warrens gets it done.
Well, to be honest I like the single Infernal Tutor in the sb. Its purpose is not exclusively the one to grab Ad Nauseam with 9 mana, but it can also help a lot during IGG loops. Moreover,there are times when, with a not explosive hand, it allows you to "convert" a Burning Wish with an Infernal tutor, in order to build a hand with mana accel+tutor as the AN grabber, or other times it may fetch you other pieces. I would definitely keep it in the sideboard, because it makes burning wish capable to grab directly almost everything (except mana), and strenghtens the possibility to make tutors-chains (often i went wish-->it-->tendrils to make the missing 1 spell i needed).
On the other side, I'm thinking about an old suggestion of yours to run Deathmark in the sideboard. i'm thinking what to cut for it, and the candidate i see is Grapeshot, since i can arguably kill with tendrils and mage/runed halo is not common at all in my metagame. Deathmark allows you to kill with less mana your hate bear, and go off the same turn, which was really more dificult with grapeshot.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I stand by 1cc removal being the best removal, especially in Death Mark's case, where it destroys every hate bear and T.Goyf.
I really think IT is needed in the MD, Mystical Tutor is just an incredibly bad excuse for threat density in TES.
Completely off the cuff idea, but has any one tried a combination of post-board Tinder Walls, Xantid Swarms or Vexing Shushers to facilitate a SB Natural Order and Progenitus? I'm not really sure what it would accomplish, but Tinker/Colossus would be totally unexpected from us, and it does completely side step traditional Storm hate.
I thought about it when Progenitus was first released. It'd only be two sideboard slots too. You just wish for the Natural Order, but you'd have to swap out Pyroblast for Xantid Swarm. Making you weaker to Counterbalance.
EDIT: This means you'd have to sideboard out Ad Nauseam to make sure you don't wreck yourself.
EDIT 2: I just realized you can at this point just returns for the win.
Yeah, Natural Order has the same problem as Infernal Tutor, it either requires additional pieces or mana to address ambiguous situations where Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns could've got the job done regardless.
I SO want to drop Progenitus on some one tho' in live play for shits and giggles.
Just Burning Wish for Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes.
LoL, even better.
Well regarding to that I'm currently playing the same mana base numbers . my cahnges are as follows :
// Lands
2 [U] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Simplify
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [10E] MeltDown
Well The othe day I tryed this configuration in one torunament and I'll tell you how it was :(M!= rules)
1st round 2-1 vs Blck with hymns duress sink ...
Well the first game he started with duress hymn and followed by 2 taRMOS but even this way just a single mystical with some moxen /lotus in play made me win easily with A.N with 7 lifes.
In 2nd game it was more with land destruction and discard, however this tiem was 2 LEDS with 2 burninn in hand and more stuff folled up by IGG from side which made me win .
2nd Round was with Mono Red burn :
2-0
I have to say that playing 1 A.N only in main is enourmusly reassuring and makes you taking a wider interval of number of decisions.
Just to say here that I won with A.N 11 lives in 1 and 8 in another damage taken from both games didn't exceeded 8
3rd Round Canadian 3sh9old :
1-2
The first game he drew 3Fows in hand !!!!! lol
but he did not put pressure in the battle of field any way I was using some duress/ orims package until I could resolve a burning - tendrils (burnin which he should have countered). In this game I cognize I should have wait 1 more turn but I espected also he couters 1 more spell ... 0-1
the second I cound resolve A.N before played after some dures /orims (have to say that becaause of having 4 M.T just I have to do is sitting down and waiting for the 2nd/3rd land and next searching with tutor exactly the piezes I need --manaing,defensing,comboing for the winĦĦĦ)
and won.
the 3rd was strange I feel like I should have won If I were a great poker player , but I'm just a good programmer... because I had to evaluate if playing FoW -> didn't play FoW(thing I knwe) -> If innhand stifle or snare or fire-to-kill-me with 1 mana open . If I had chose the in hand stifle option I had won, knowing he was playing no FoW. 1-2
3rd Round 2-0
Landstill Easy just waiting to fill up with orims and pyros and duresses and win
Conclusions :
I just think that playing just 1 A.N is fine never needed more than 1 , and it makes us playing with much more options and with more damage accumulated.
The 4 mystical tutor, I haven't used the trick of mystical+LED becasue of M10 and neither needed , as well the ponder/ brainstorm - mystical trick haven't used , but I had it in mind as possible in different games .
The thing about M.Tutor is that sometimes when ytouhave played 2nd land and you have sculpted your hand with ponder brainstorm you just need the ritgh card and no more lands to play for example. and this job is just what m.tutor do makes win us exatly with the correct number of cards by functionality.
There were games I played like 2 duress 2 orims and next make the combo because of the conjunction of the great amount og generic tutors the deck has.
In 4 games in the tournament I have won in a different way than playing A.N.
The more I play burning the more I think why the hell ANT players don't play it.
The more I play 4 ponder 4 brainstorm the more conviced I 'm of playing 4 of all and even the 4 M.Tutor inclusion makes them better cards getting up our chances of winning.
Definatly not neccesity of IGG in main -> we play burning and mystical.
no need of playing chain of vapor -> we play burning and mystical.
Evolution :
I'm thinking of putting in 1 I.T instead 1 m:Tutor
Ideas , suggestions , onions?
The main isue about a single Ad Nauseam is that it still is,despites the possibility of this deck to go of in several differente ways,the main bomb of the deck. it gives us the incredible faculty of having the "cast-1-card-and-win" button, in almost 60-65% of the times we manage to get it (of course escluding the possibilities of bad luck, sucky flips, and the times when you attempt an AdNauseam at 7 lives or so).
So why to play only 1, since with 1 you arguably expose yourself to the risk of having it discarded or, even worse, you may have to pitch it to mox in some cases (yes, it happens)? 2 is the correct number, proven by many tests. With 2 Nauseams, 1 Tendrils and 1 Igg, you'll never risk to lose too much life, since , at the worst of your luck, you can get 13 damages from all of them together (but hey, you need to be such a bad mislucker to get those 3 in a row).
To be honest, i can see your point of running only 1 AdNos in your deck, since the presence of 4 Mystical tutors to grab it. But 4 Mystical tutors are really controproductive, i play 2 in my list and sometimes when i draw both it's like to have lost 2 turns, since they are card disadvantage.
With 4, the %s of drawing 2 of them are skyrocketed, which means you're really slowing yourself down into "sculpting the perfect hand".
I think that, for this purpose, the cantrips are already sufficient; and if you want to opmitize them without spending too much turns, just add few fetchlands. Brainstorm with fetchlands is ridicolously good in this deck, it turns crap hands into blasts.
Also, perhaps I'd run 1 fetch instead of the 2nd Volcanic. Thsi allows you to grab R or B when one of them is needed. While we're pretty much always happy to see an Usea since the great qty of Black cards in this deck, a topdecked (or in initial hand) Volcanic island may not be well-wanted, since we only run 8 red spells (9 for those who, like me,are playing the single Pyroblast). I mean, after all this deck is black-based, so Volcanic should stay in 1-ofs. That single fetch may also provide the benefit of cheap shuffle effect for your cantrips,other than color-fixing.
My 2 thoughts.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Well I think I have found the difference , I do not contemplaqte bad or good luck I contemplate maths and statitistics because when you play A.N you have no more A.N except the casting 4 cost tendrils (which is exactly what you need ) you perfectly can cast A.N at 7 lifes and NOW you do not have to have BAD or GOOD luck becuase of revealing a 5 cost , however the BAD luck is now here revealing 2 card cost .
I'm sure in ANT decks I' ll play 2 A.N as minimum but , boys Ħ We have burning wish which is our really bomb.
Regarding to the fetch ... I do not find it sense :
you play 4 rituakl --> 4 ritual (red)
you play 3/4I.Tutor --> 4 B.Wish (red)
rest of the deck is Artifact , and blue .
Regarding to duress I mean is like orims so I think about that as random color card in general.
You don't need 2 Ad Nauseam, you only want 2 Ad Nauseam to increase threat density if you want it at all. "What if" Ad Nauseam is discarded is a bad argument, because Infernal Tutor can still search for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish -> Ill Gotten Gains, so all it does is add +1 or +2 mana to your total costs when Thought Seize does discard Ad Nauseam once in a blue moon.
There's nothing that suggests 2 Ad Nauseam or Ill Gotten Gains is mandatory in the MD - it's totally preference.
Edit: You guys should really be running 4 Duress and 3 Orim's Chant instead of 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Duress, having Duress on the play/draw first turn is so much more important than having Orim's Chant - considering the presence of Counterbalance.
As an aside, don't you guys think 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Mystical Tutor and 1 Chain of Vapor make the deck incredibly clunky? I keep comparing it to my Tinder Wall list, and it mulls a lot of extra hands.
I'm looking for sideboard suggestions. I'm currently running 1 tendrils of agony, 1 ill-gotten gains, 1 infernal tutor, 1 diminishing returns, 1 hurkyl's recall, 1 grapeshot, 1 empty the warrens, 3 shattering spree, 4 pyroblast, and 1 pyroclasm. I'm considering cutting a pyroclasm for a deathmark as it kills tarmogoyf and ethersworn canonist and grapeshot can kill most things pyroclasm can.
Having done some matches on MWS (ok,not the best play to test decks, but this reguards only a matter of cards-randomization..even if mws shuffler always sucks), I too have to admit I sometimes would like to play with a single Ad Nauseam. Flipping the second is always a hit in the balls, unfortunately. The point is that running two doesn't only increase the threat density as breathWeapon said, but it also helps in certain situations that may show up. One example? I had a perfect hand: Burning wish+7 mana between led and rites/rituals, and the singleton Ad Nauseam in hand. Now, if i had had two of them, i could have done wish-> infernal->ad nauseam. but in this way, i was stuck with an only alternative really useful to win immediately ( i couldn't etw because he had lots of creatures), which is Diminishing returns, but i don't want to throw my chances to win to luck that much ( at least with AdNauseam you draw a lots more).
To answer you, BreathWeapon, perhaps "having it discarded " is not a valid argumentation, but it still happens, and you should know Ad Nauseam is the most shortcut-to-victory bomb we can exploit. You're right when you say "if it gets discarded, then go tutor-chain or Diminishing ", but these ways to go off are way more mana intensive and usually require some LEDs in them too, and you know that the opponent usually plays too and puts on you some presure either by disruption (counters/discard), or mana denial. We're not always playing against Dwarfs.dec,unfortunately, which would allow us to sculpt a perfect hand: playing against blue aggro-control with counterbalance, you often have to push it as quick as you can, in a brutal way too, because it becomes a race in time. That's why i really like to have 2 Ad nauseams: because they not only increase the Bomb density, but because they require really few things to be thrown, unless the other storm-engines (1 rite of flame and 1 dark ritual is enough,and often you open with those 2 cards), and having 1 invalidated doesn't mean you 're completely shut off from the AN option.
But still, revealing the second to first still incredibly sucks. The only way to play 1 is , as said, to increase the quantity of Mysticals; but the deck at that point would perhaps become too clunky and slow (mystical has lost part of its charm since m10 fucking rules, that's a pity).
Bryant, have you tested the single Ad Nauseam configuration, with 3 Mysticals (or 4 ponder)? if yes, how was it? did you have issues or difficulties of any kind with a single AN?
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I have tested the Tinder Wall approach and liked it before I realized Simian Spirit Guide>Tinder Wall in most circumstances. The mana cost of Tinder Wall requires an initial mana investment and slows the deck down (even if it costed R!). Hardly do I want to cast it, past my turn and turning opponent's dead cards into Wasteland. The main issue with SSG is paying 2 more life post AdN, which is relevant and the reason we play Duress over Thoughtseize. However, the explosiveness of SSG enables you to go off 1 turn earlier which may save more life and post AdN, SSG is still a superior mana source. By the way, I also tend to believe SSG>Cabal Ritual on the 6th mana acceleration slot.
I agree Simian Spirit Guide > Tinder Wall, considering it's an initial mana source and a Daze counter, compared to a sub-par Rite of Flame and a pass the turn mana fixer + red Dark Ritual. But the CC difference is significant, and that CC difference is the reason I chose Tinder Wall. But maybe I'm wrong, and Simian Spirit Guide is superior to Tinder Wall despite the CC difference. If you're right, I'd trade Tinder Wall for Simian Spirit Guide in a second.
I guess I'm off to Gold Fish SSG vs Tinder Wall.
EDIT: Yeah, I like SSG way more than Tinder Wall, screw the extra damage.
@Piceli
What makes you think you need Mystical Tutor to play 1 Ad Nauseam? I've been playing 0 Mystical Tutor and 1 Ad Nauseam and it works perfectly well.
IMO, the fringe cases of Duress hitting Ad Nauseam or drawing Ad Nauseam in hand are rarer than flipping Ad Nauseam, you just have to learn to live with it when it does happen for the sake of efficiency.
Last edited by BreathWeapon; 07-20-2009 at 07:11 AM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
