Pre-M10 it was really pretty easy to go turn 2 ad nauseam, that being said you didn't wanna draw IGG with it so some of us didn't run it main deck.
At least explain your thoughts on why.Originally Posted by lebron jim
We can no longer do the upkeep trick anymore.
Have you played in a non-mws event since M10? Zoo is everywhere since it kicks the shit out of counterbalance decks. Counterbalance is now declining finally, however, aggressive decks are on the rise. I’m not comfortable with relying on an additional +2 mana against Zoo decks, that additional mana will take more time, allowing them time to deal more damage. By that time, when you Ill-Gotten Gains, they’ll just burn you out.
Play testing against goyf sligh last night and zoo the night before I've found that IGG definitley needs to be main deck. By turn 3-4 they can do quite a bit of damage and leave you unable to safely Ad Nauseam. And as Bryant stated, the extra 2 mana to burning wish for it is often simply not available that quickly.
Vs Zoo, I just SB in IGG. You've got 3 games to win the match, 2 games with IGG MD and 1 game with IGG SB, and you can still beat Zoo Turn 1/2 with Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns for 1 less mana. Zoo seriously shouldn't be a design consideration for our MD efficiency, and I definitely disagree Zoo is pushing out Counterbalance, because it's as ubiquitous as ever IMO.
Also, I run more acceleration than you guys, so that's probably a significant factor.
Ok,BreathWeapon, but it's not that IGG is there only for the Zoo matchup, to be sided in g2 and g3. Apart from the fact that, if you lose g1, you are not sure to win both g2 and g3 because they're going to bring more hate in the form of Canonist/Teeg/Pillar/Thorn and so,so it's a bit risky to say " Oh, we have got g2 and g3 to side IGG in in case we lose g1". And you can't always go turn1-2 Ad nauseam in g1, and i would avoid at any cost to rely too much on Diminishing Returns.
Furthermore, Igg is not only there against aggressive decks, as it may turn out that, in some matches against aggro-control,you're stuck with low life from Tarmogoyf beats and you cannot afford to cast a safe Ad Nauseam. Igg is really a guaranteed victory in these cases, and a further way to go off. Diversifying your ways to create storm is something which makes this deck really difficult to lock totally, and therefore here comes its strength. If we put all our chances on Ad Nauseam, the opponent has way more easy ways to fuck us. Even a meddling mage on AdN can cause serious harm, and must be removed via Wish. And yes, you can say that "I don't have only AdN, i have also IGG with Burning WIsh", but that costs a lot of mana, lots more if you'd pack it MD.
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Honestly, Meddling Mage on Ad Nauseam is utterly fucking retarded, why wouldn't they just name Infernal Tutor in the first place? And I doubt Zoo is going to bother to SB vs Combo compared to SBing vs more common match ups it can actually win a match against. People constantly said the same thing about Goblins, and they were just as wrong then as Zoo players are wrong now, if they think they can go 2/3 on the back of a hate filled SB.
If you need Ill Gotten Gains MD, then play Ill Gotten Gains MD - personally I don't find it necessary, nor do I find it useful enough, often enough to justify the mulligans and the 4 damage.
Because people knows that ANT decks are usually packing Mystical Tutor. The fact that you don't just doesn't mean that your opponent knows it.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I had a little discussion about the mm thing with emidln some pages ago and piceli has just the point.Because people knows that ANT decks are usually packing Mystical Tutor. The fact that you don't just doesn't mean that your opponent knows it.
He says lots of wise things, you should listen to him.
Team Legal Actions.
I still think that igg is a great card for the maindeck, it's an alternative way to combo off different of AN.
And by the way...what about silence MD??
@EaD: thanks, pleased to see someone who doesn't hate me on this thread ^^
@ BreathWeapon: Meddling Mage usually names two things: Tendrils of Agony and Ad Nauseam. The first one is obvious, and even the second is easy to understand , since it's your really bomb. The opponent is not that likely to name IT because Meddling Mage is usually played nowadays in Landstill, and Landstill has a good way to stop your IT+led with an additional counter which is Spell Snare, other than Counterspell and FoW.
And the general knowledge a medium control player has about combo is that AdNauseam is a bomb (not randomly all the storm combo decks, inclding Ant,TES and even Doomsday are often all wrongly mislabeled under "Ad nauseam combo" without taking into account their deep differences, because combo is poorly known by control and aggro-control players) and Tendrils is our finisher, so MMage has to name one of them. A better-than-average Landstill player will name AdN,since he'll know that, if he names Tendrils and you resolve AdN, you will be able easily draw plenty of cards, wish for a removal on mage and then kill him with tendrils.
So, it's not that difficult that a Mage could name AdNauseam, since it seems to be the most dangerous and the "essence" of each modern stom combo at the eyes of non-combo players.
And it's at this point that you proceed fucking them with IGG loops. :P
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I think you're playing against some seriously inept aggro-control players, if those aggro-control players aren't smart enough to realize cutting off a 4x is better than cutting off a 1x that you're in no way obligated to use. I usually go for game theoretically optimal solutions vs competent opponents than for exploitative plays vs incompetent opponent's when making static decisions like deck construction.
As an aside, any one else bothered to test a set of SSG and compare their utility vs the number of times you lose to their 3cc on the Ad chains? It's such an awesome card for comboing out and after Diminishing Returns, but those bolts to the head really hurt.
You play 4Burnin wish which is more than enough to play IGG and win Red decks ,agro and anything which can win you on 4-5 turn by damage,
Simple :
- If you play burning do not run IGG main
- Other wise play 1 IGG main
My Brain Is Big Team
I went 3-3 in Vestal yesterday losing to faeries with cb+top, TES (bryant cook), and Survival played by TOGITwill (who rode up in the same car as me.) Against faeries he got out an early counterbalance+top and had counters before that. Playing against Bryant I made a few play mistakes (I had a hand with a chrome mox and 2 duress and I didn't imprint a duress and duress him and keeping a LED in my hand when the last time I saw him he specifically told me to always play it when I knew my opponent had discard) and I kept a hand I definitley should not of kept in another game. Game 1 against survival I basically killed myself with Ad Nauseam starting from 19 which was pathetic and in game 3 he got out an early survival and survivaled up a teeg, I wished for deathmark and passed the turn (i only had 2 mana sources) and he than cabal therapied it. I than quickly lost to 2 goyfs.
When I did lose, my team would remind me that I was doing it wrong.
Last edited by Jim Higginbottom; 07-26-2009 at 01:53 PM.
The EPIC Storm as of 7/21/09
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Orim’s Chant
3 Duress
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Silence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:4 Pyroblast
Well, this is the new list. You'll notice there's only one Ad Nauseam, I feel like I don't want to deal with two in the deck any time soon. I was loving being comfortable to Ad Nauseam without worry. The second change was 2 Mystical and 4 Ponder, Mystical Tutor is just weak now. It's still a decent card, but not anywhere near what it was. I even sided it out a few times. Coming out of the sideboard was Infernal Tutor, I'm unsure if it ever actually mattered. It just seemed like a filler slot for the second Ad Nauseam. I got a few tutor heavy hands in the event that I absolutely hated, meaning that Infernal #4 may be leaving. In my eyes there's only 2 (maybe 4) available slots, Infernal (#4) and Chain of Vapor. 4 if you're willing to drop Mystical.
With the sideboard, I wanted a second Shattering Spree back in the board so I could board one in and still be able to wish for one.
As for how I did at the event, my worst in awhile (3-3).
Round one (loss) - I lost g3 to Merfolk, Turn 2 I Rite of Flame, Burning Wish (Resolves). Grab ETW, Rite of Flame, he dazes (I pay), he dazes, in response I Dark Ritual, he forces. I'm stuck with a dead ETW in my hand. Bummer, I didn't do anything wrong, he just got a retarded draw. On the plus side, I had a killer Diminishing Returns g2, I had 2 Duress, Ritual, Tendrils, land, Mox, Infernal with 2 mana floating. Merfolk player had 2 Forces. He still lost.
Round three (loss)- Hollywood my opponent, opened with back to back turn 1 trinispheres. I managed to destroy it g1 and was going to win on my next turn when he played a second. Then g2, I kept a 3 lander with grip and some Rituals. He wastes my 3rd land and I never see another, if I do I kill him that turn.
Round 6 (loss) - ( My only two Mulligans of the day)
It's Zoo, I mull to four and have a turn 3 win. Zoo had a turn 3 win on the play, nactl, Goyf, Chain, Bolt, Bolt, Blast. Then G3 I mulligan I'm forced to Tendrils for 16 to stay alive with another Tendrils in my hand. I have 4 lands and am waiting to draw something I can cast in the same turn. By the time I do, I'm forced to tap city and Tendrils. He bolts and Lavamancers me for exactly enough damage.
I beat Merfolk, Landstill and the Mirror.
I feel like it wasn't the deck's fault, by my opponents just having better draws. (Maybe besides round 6, it shit the bed, where it didn't matter anyway)
Ok I have a question. Is the 1x Silence better then the 4th Chant? Is Silence there just because it can't be Misdirected back to you? Or does it really matter at all?
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
I think it's for runed halo and MMage.
Nice list, don't you mis the single C.Ritual?, it's a great trick with chalice @ 1 and Trini.
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it.” —Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
@Brushwagg: a single Silence may really fit the deck, even if the Misdiretion thing won't occur too much in this format ( but still, in my last tourney i got a chant Misdirected on me and it made me lose a turn).
@Bryant: i think that the 4th Infernal Tutor doesn't belong to the deck anymore. It's too fuckin' awesome as a wish target to do crazy shenanigans starting from Bwish and lots of mana. Basically, it allows you to double-IGG (the 1st from the side and the 2nd maindeck) from a burning wish, and go ahead, while you can't do this with Bwish only because it gets removed. Furthermore, there'll be times when drawing , as you were saying, "tutor heavy hands" will be a really pain in the ass (they really slow down your hand), and furthermore infernal tutor is NOT a replace for the 2nd Ad Nauseam, since it's not always hellbented. If you want to stick with more choices, just exploit the ones you already have by running 3 Mysticals to grab them. It's going really good for me now, playing 3 i rarely get 2 in the hands. I feel we need more ways to tutor up AdN, since we play 1 now. Mystical is still good despites that famous trick lost, it can tutor up the piece you miss for your combo-hand. Give it a chance, maybe -1 ponder +1 mystical, trust me, they're worth tryng.
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Why -1 Ponder? If both of your suggestions are taken it is -1 Infernal Tutor +1 Mystical Tutor. I'm running Bryant's list with the exception of that and running 2 Silences + 2 Chants. Unfortunately while running this list on Saturday I still had a Chant misdirected on the last turn I could possibly win against faeries.
Last edited by Jim Higginbottom; 07-26-2009 at 06:28 PM. Reason: took out the 2nd saturday
Yes, you're right. -1 It, +1 Mystical.
I had chant misdirected too against faeries !Fucking random topdecks.
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@Bryant
Have you tried 4 Duress MD, 1 Thought Seize SB and a 2 Orim's Chant, 2 Silence build? The more I run it, the more I know I want 4 Duress MD to stop Counterbalance at all costs. Orim's Chant/Silence are more mid game disruption, you want them when your opponent has the mana development to cast multiple counters or hide counters with Top, so you can afford to run less of them because you'll draw into them by the time you need them, where you need Duress ASAP before you get completely locked out.
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