If you could PM me a copy, im interested in the list.Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
So do i
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14613
check that out.
You can also find an open thread and discussion about it in the STORM boards
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
So guys, returning to talk about "our" version of TES, I'd like to discuss with you about the "Interchangeable" slot, which is occupied by a bounce spell in most of the cases. I've been thinking about it, and I came to the conclusion that a bounce spell isn't always the right option in that slot. I mean, this deck is an aggressive storm combo; therefore, it should try to achieve its goal (which is the one to manage to go off) in a few turns, without taking too much time. Does the bounce follow this philosophy? No, it just delays the opponent few turns bouncing a permanent and forcing him to replay it again. Even in the case of the real troublesome permanents, where I can more understand its purpose, the bounce slot may not always be good.
Let's take Counterbalance, for example, which i assume everyone agrees when i say it's the most painful card for TES g1. The most of the times, I noticed it's almost impossible to bounce it. If we try to bounce it immediately, the bounce spell will probably be Dazed/FoWed (of course it's given that our opponent knows that CB is a bit painful for combo). The turns after, the opponent will be likely to stay mana open a bit to begin countering all your spells, in combo with Top, with cantrips, or with luck, so it's even less probable that the bounce spell with get through. Furthermore Since the most likely bounce spell TES can afford to run is Chain Of Vapor, it will be even more difficult to gtfo CB. Try to tutor Chain of Vapor via Mystical or cantrip ? Mystical or cantrip countered, fail.
The only option would be Wipe Away maindeck; but, as we know, it seriously interferes with the mana-light structure of the deck, with AdN and sometimes may be too much heavy to stick in hand and denying hellbent a hand with Infernal Tutor (wthout LED).
The reasoning above was pretty obvious and hackneyed, I admit it; but it is to say that I'm not convinced a Bouncer is always good, and I got to this convinction after having seen that no one of the TES-hybridesque lists that show up on Deckcheck (the ones with some fetchlands, duals, similar to that one played by Kolowith at the Gp Chicago) actually run a bounce spell maindeck, but still made top8s.
Against Cb.dec, the "plan" should be the one to usually lose g1 (if CB lands), and then get g2 and g3 with a solid sideboard. 3 Pyroblast and 1 Krosan Grip should rally help against that fucking enchantment.
Now, if we cut the bounce spell, the question comes natural: what to play in that slot? And here I toyed around with some teches and crazy ideas.
Option #1 : Extirpate
pros
-well, can get rid of what you want in the yard, of course it should be used on FoWs or Dazes;
-it's really good against those deck with few hardcounters, such a Merfolk;
-split second;
-even if not played on a hardcounter, is an uncounterable way to look at your oppo's hand to setup your hand and know how to play through instant hate.
-in desperate cases, it can even be used to change the card on top of the deck revealed by CB.
-good against enemy combos, and Ichorid, if you'll ever need it.
cons
-requires a fow or the other desired counter to be in the bin to work at its very use.
Option #2: Gigadrowse
pros:
-can tap multiple permanents, especially lands, at instant speed, making it a pseudo-Turnabout really good against Thresholesque decks and even more Landstill.
-can act like a pseudo Chant either by tapping enemy's lands at upk or tapping its creatures in order to fog them;
-pretty much uncounterable if it's >=3. Of course this happens when you're waiting a bit before going off, i.e. usually against blue decks.
slops:
-quite mana hungry, that's why I don't think it really combos well with the way this decks works (perhaps it could be more interesting in ANT or in 3-color Doomsday). Still a good option, though, in case of a metagame really full of Threshold, imo.
Option #3: Peek (MVP)
pros:
-looks at opponent's hand. I can swear that this is a very good thing even against non-blue decks. You can know how to behave, say, against a unknown deck by Peeking them first turn; you can know how to spend your chants timewalking an opponent if you get that he plays, for ex., Chalice-Tomb decks or Discard; you can know which spells a Burn player holds in hand, allowing you to calculate how much you have to speed yourself.
And, most of all, you can get knowledge of a blue player's hand, which is a huge boost for you to trick them with your protections and manage to go off. It's a great card in Solidarity, i guess it can be as much as great in this deck too.
-Acts like a protection against blue decks, which won't be really happy to let you see their hands and will counter Peek. I bet there are players who'll FoW Peek, in attempt to hide their Stifle-Snares. That's where you smile, Chant them, and go off.
-Even against decks where you'd really don't mind seeing their hand (f.e., Enchantress), Peek is always a cantrip that makes you sculpt your hand quickly, and that card drawn by Peek may make the difference between, say, a turn 2 victory and a turn 3 one.
-"Combos" well with the other cantrips, and Mystical tutor.
slops
-It actually doesn't get rid of a counter or a CB, but for that you have 7 other protection spells.
Ok, so these were my thoughts about the possibility to turn the bounce spell into something more "synergic" with the straightforward nature of the deck. At the moment I'm testing Peek, and I have never been disappointed to see it in my hand; i consider it both the 9th cantrip, and the 8th piece of protection, in the way it acts against permission decks.
Of course you have to run the bounce spell if your meta packs troublesome permanents even g1, but thinking about it, which permanents can really be considered "troublesome" g1, ecept for CB?
Meddling Mage/True Believer/Gaddock Teeg aren't played Maindeck these days (except for some american player in Bryant's meta, ok, but they're a lot behind us..). Chalice, in g1, against an unnknown deck is usually set at 1 , never at 0, making CoV useless anyway. Trinisphere shuts down completely the deck, ad I think it's difficult to remove it via CoV. The only option is to pray we survive enough to reach some mana and go Wish-->Spree.
Any other thing can be, more or less, played around. Oh, i was forgetting Nether Void, but well...
So, in conclusion, to me gaining time in a fast storm combo isn't necessarily better than playing a card that can either give information about the kind of oppo's deck and hate cards to face while comboing off, and a cantrip that gives us more cards, all in one. I hope we can discuss a bit about these options I showed above, particularly Peek, and also if you have other potential cards to discuss.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
You did not consider Pyroblast. It has the same probability of resolving through a CB, but instead destroys it. It buys time and destroy cursecatcher against merfolk, and counters opposing blue spells (not only counters but cantrips too). Frees one more SB slot. Works in a pinch against random Jace, MM, Vendillion. Imprint for red and can be played without target to get hellbent.
There's also Repeal, that bounces Chalice at zero and CB quite well, without taking too much dmg from AN. Has the same cantripping power of peek if you have some 0 cc acceleration and can be used as a little storm engine.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I do not like any of those three. I'd much rather play the two Greenone mentioned if I had to play something besides Chain.
Ok, I agree that a bounce spell with only 2 Mysticals was a bad choice since day 1, but why would you play any of those cards you mentioned over acceleration, protection etc? Even a singleton REB is probably way better than CoV, excluding random Stax pieces.
What is your current list, because I don't think that the one on the first post is it..
I tried Pyroblast (i was the one who suggested it maindeck), and against non-blue decks it was obviouslt a totally dead card, if not to produce 1 extra storm count. For Repeal instead, if i want it to be a cantrip, i usually need a 0 cc artifact on my side to be dropped on the table..And on g1 Chalice is always set @1 not knowing what the opponent plays, and that means Repeal isn't that great against artifacts. The point about Peek is that what it does is always useful, in every MU, be it blue-based or not. Also, the ability to know which counters to fight through is really great, perhaps you're underestimating it, and it makes the card itself a threat for an opponent.
This to say that I have both tested Pyroblast and Repeal maindeck, and they didn't always behave greatly. Peek instead, seems to be a good utility cards. Of course g2 it gets normally sided out in favor of an anti-hate card, however.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Peek seems really, really bad compared to a Duress or a Thought Seize, collecting information and discarding counters is much better than collecting information and cantripping.
PEEK IS TERRIBLE What it does is never good. All peek does is make you spend one mana to replace itself. God that is aweful. I mean decks like dredge don't even play street wraith, because cards that replace themselves are bad. You have no idea if you will draw something useful or not and it leads to bad decisions when it comes to mulligans, and in dredge the wraith not only replaces itself, but can give them another dredge.
Gigadrowse and extirpate are terrible too. How are we going to make use of gigadrowse? Sac lotus petal for mana? I mean seriously, even if we had access to lots of mana it does nothing to combat FoW, or daze. And extirpate??? What??? I don't understand this at all. Extirpate is a terrible card anyway, but we are a combo deck. I cannot ever imagine a situation when I would rather cast extirpate over thoughtseize.
Gigadrowse could have been useful against tempo decks shuttin down the "mana" counters. For thoughtseize, if you're playing thoughtseize in TES, you're playing it bad. 2 lives is a big, big issue with Ad Nauseam and City of Brass. That's why personally i wouldn't never play 4 duress MD and a thoughtseize sb as a Wish target.
No need to be so nervous in any case, i was just throwing ideas about card that somehow could have been interesting. Sorry for having tried it, I'll wait until You in Your Majesty come out with the ultimate tech for TES. Just for the sake of knowing, I tested peek a bit and it can really be troublesome for blue decks, it makes pressure on them.
But I guess I'll return to Pyroblast, I didn't think to the possibility of smashing Cursecatcher and Merfolks seems to run rampant here by my parts too. Ty GreenOne for that tip.
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I have been testing with Cabal Ritual in the spot of CoV. Maybe thats awful, but it seems to make me a lot faster Game 1, then in game two I get to run more specific hate.
Krosan Grip; it has been super clunky. I usually I have to use a Dark Ritual when I cast it, any alternatives?
I don't think I would want to drop below 8 protection spells main, so maybe Cabal Therapy in the side as a Wish target, or is it just that bad in TES?
That is such a ridiculous logical fallacy, I could just as easily argue that decreasing your odds of discarding Counterbalance on the play/draw from SBing Duress is even more devastating than taking 2 damage from Thought Seize at your own discretion. As a wish target, it's always up to you whether or not you need to wish for Thought Seize, and if you have no other choice than 2 life is the least of your worries.
Seriously, even ANT variants run 4 MD,1 SB hardly matters. And I'd argue it's a lot better than the 1 Chain of Vapor for a whopping 2 Mystical Tutor that every one seems to be playing.
Personally not a huge fan of Mystical Tutor without Top. If there was another 2CC tutor that brought cards we wanted to out hands, then it would be played, the problem is, there isn't. The only other card that could work would be Cunning Wish, which costs 3 (admittedly it does work wonders with AdN and Cabal Rituals) which is 1 too much.
M.Tutor isn't really necessary for threat density, none of the Pre-AdN lists bothered with sub-par tutors for additional threats, and I'm not really sure why people feel the need to do so now. M.Tutor is a vestigial organ of passed LED/AdN goodness, it needs to evolve out of the list IMO.
What do you think should replace the Mysticals/CoV then?
I'm going to guess since you aren't a fan of Mystical, you aren't a huge fan of Cunning Wish as a possible replacement, I've been testing it, and the ability to AdN at someone's end step is pretty awesome.
I've tried Cunning Wish off and on, the problem tho' is it's a 2x that stretches the SB too far, and at 3cc it's a little too costly for wishing for answers (altho' beneficial when facing CB). Personally, I just run more acceleration - either Simian Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall. Simian Spirit Guide being my love/hate choice, you increase your wins off of Diminishing Returns but decrease your wins off of Ad Nauseam in theory, but in practice just being flat out the 3rd best non-artifiact accelerant, initial mana source and Daze counter probably wins more games than its 3cc loses. It's also pretty invaluable with Shattering Spree, which I've been 4xing lately do to a rise in Green Chalice Aggro.
The only change I've made to my sideboard because of Cunning is -1 Diminishing Returns, -1 Pyroblast +1 Silence +1 Ad Nauseam. Against control decks, it EoT fetches answers like Krosan Grip, Chant, or Pyroblast; or it fetches acceleration in the form of Cabal Ritual; or it fetches the engine that is AdNauseam.
Current Sideboard with Cunning Wish:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
2 Shattering Spree
1 Silence
3 Pyroblast
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