You can say that but I'm still not convinced. If you play Pyroblast instead of the 4th Duress (which remains in the sb)l, you have chances to counter or destroy it, not to mention pyroblast can do lots of other things. It's not always possible to discard Counterbalance 1st turn, because there's something called Brainstorm which lets them hide it if we're on the draw or to get it from the top as well.Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
About Mystical tutors: even if I dislike their slowness and C-Disadvantage too, I think such a versatile card is required in this deck. I mean, you won't always open perfect hands, and often you're lacking for a tutor or a protection piece. That's were Mystical shines. If you manage to get perfect hands exclusively by cantrips, I'm happy for you, but this sadly doesn't happen to me too. Even without the LED+AdN trick, it's still a necessity in this deck, since it pretty much increases the threat density too, now that most of us play with a single AdN. And if you're replacin them with more accels, I really think you'll be more likely to open hands with shittons of mana, 1 piece of protection and a bomb/tutor missing.
And another thing i can't get of your reasoning is why then standard ANT lists runs 4 Mysticals if they suck so much as you say, but qualify for a DTB and put up several top8s. I mean, they don't even run top, and they're playing the same 8 cantrips as us ! Are they fool?
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I'm not really disagreeing with you, because well, I don't ever want to be on Breathweapon's side of an argument. But... they lack the four additional tutors in Burning Wish to be fair.
Hi there, I was playing TES back then when AN wasnīt printed with some succes and then switched to blue based conrol.
Now I wanted to start playing stormcombo again and therefor picked picellis list and started testing. After some games I was quite shocked: The deck felt waaay slower then in the past and therefor wasnīt really more consistent...
Is it just me not playing the deck well anymore (I think I still do) or is it a fact that the deck just lost some speed (AND consistency?o0)?
NQN
DCI: 68 10 43 34
M.Tutor in AnT and M.Tutor in TES can't be compared, AnT is prepared with M.Tutor and Top to head into the middle/end game with card selection, where TES is concerned with the early game and racing the opponent's threats before they come online. One turn gives the opponent Spellsnare, two turns gives the opponent Counterbalance etc. and those are serious issues for TES. AnT isn't as susceptible to Spellsnare or Counterbalance as TES, M.Tutor is a shuffling effect for Top and Burning Wish doesn't really work for AnT because the amount of acceleration is too low and the number of lands is too high for Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens to be really feasible. Basically, AnT gets more out of M.Tutor than TES does, and AnT doesn't really have any other choice but to run M.Tutor any way.
The whole "Brainstorm argument" is totally moot, you're maximizing your odds of discarding a Counterbalance by upping your Duress whether they have Brainstorm or not. I wasn't comparing Duress vs Pyroblast, if you want to run Pyroblast go for it - I recommended it over Chain of Vapor myself. What I was getting at is 4 MD Duress and 1 SB Thought Seize isn't as "horribly bad" as you say it is.
I don't have anything bad to say about AnT and M.Tutor in that deck either, but you can't really compare M.Tutor in AnT and TES like the card translates from one deck to another seamlessly. Frankly, I think M.Tutor in TES is just a crutch for people who can't mulligan well with TES, and a bounce spell for 2 M.Tutors just blows really hard.
Ad Nauseam was printed, so the deck had to change a lot its structure to adequately support it. To me, after having tried a bit the olderst version of TES, this version (call it "Next Level TES" or as you want it) is way more better. It may lose a bit of its eplosiveness and speed it used to have, but it gains a lot in terms of consistency, either by having 8 cantrips, not having lands that suck any more, and with AdN itself. Perhaps it began a bit harder to pilot, for that issue ask Bryant.
COunterbalance was also printed, so we had to put slots to face it.
Ah, I'd also recommend NOT to test it on Mws, because you'll open shitty hands with 5 lands and 2 cards for a good %s of time. We all know how much shitty are MWS' shuffling algorhytms, for that.
@BreathWeapon: let's suppose that, for a moment, I give you reason and I'd want to cut Mystical Tutor out of the deck. I'm very curious about what you'd stick in my list instead of of the 2 MTs. I asked this question to myself some times too, and I wasn't able to give the name of a good replacement. I just know that with 7 tutors, 1 AdN, 1 Igg, 1 Tendrils and despites the 8 cantrips, I still have times when i open hands with shittons of accels or protections + lands only. Lowering the threat density furtherly by cutting 2 Tutors for 2 Accels to me is compromising the deck's capability of drawing a "balanced" hand.
One thing you could answer me is to do 8 tutors MD. Nope, the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is something amazing, it enables gorgeous ways to add lots of storm when i have lots of mana + Wish.
Then,what to put in ? My latest list, for reference:
// Lands
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [US] Duress
1 [IA] Pyroblast
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark/ Grapeshot (still undecided)
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Bryant: yes, but Burning Wish can't directly grab AdN or Chant.. I understand the fact that they arguably wouldn't play anything in replacement of Mystical Tutor because it's really good with shuffling effects and top (which nomal ANT don't run usually, btw, but let's assume it),ecc ecc..And most of all because those 3 colours don't offer nothing better, but MT is still a good way to fetch AdN, a thing that still works without fetches and top and that BWish can't do. Without Mystical, we'd be forced to get AdN either by lucksacking it with a cantrip or a topdeck, or to get it by Infernal Tutor. But this last option usually requires instant accel + led, and if you haveinstant accell +leds and IT you probably want to off via IGG.
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Honestly, I think you're list is too far off from mine to really make direct substitutions. The SB Infernal Tutor is win more, and you're superficially reducing your threat density and in return creating an artificial dependency on M.Tutor to the point where you could never cut it from your list regardless.
I run more or less the OP list -IGG, -CoV, -2 M.Tutor and -1 Land for +4 SSG and +1 Duress (all golden lands too).
Itīs not that I played Storm when CB wasnīt printed :D I made the same experience with MWS and totaly gave it up for TES past then ;) Well, I think Breathweapons lists is a list Iīd like more...But first Iīll try to get some results with NLS :)
DCI: 68 10 43 34
How do you not just die to AdN?
If you resolve your AdN .5 Turns faster, you have more life to draw cards. If you have more initial mana sources, you don't have to draw as many cards to win. It's really not that bad, if you compare 4 SSG to the second Ad Nauseam and Ill Gotten Gains it's about dead even avg CC and less spikey altogether.
And what about if you face a blue deck (say, tempo threshold), don't manage to go off immediately, and get some bolts/goyf-goose swings? You'll start from a medium qty of life flipping cards by AdN, and i wouldn't be that quiet knowing i can receive 4 potential bolts at each flip. Not to mention if you're running somethin like Forbidden Orchard and you're basically helping your opponent in putting you down at each cantrip/tutor you make in the setup turns.
And most of all, cutting Ill-Gotten Gains Maindeck is denying what TES was built for, flexibility in front of any situation.
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There is going to be one card with Ritual in it's name. Here is for a functional reprint of Dark Ritual.
1) Cutting Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't decrease TES's flexibility, it increases TES's mana cost for that flexibility while reducing it's "dead draws." On the one hand, you think it's ok to SB Infernal Tutor, which reduces your threat density and either costs the same as Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Ill Gotten Gains or costs more than Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns, but you don't think it's ok to cut the MD Ill Gotten Gains. This position baffles me, because SBing Infernal Tutor is completely unnecessary, while cutting MD Ill Gotten Gains is more efficient and is more skillful because it requires the TES pilot to be able to judge when he has sufficient life for Ad Nauseam and when he should just "roll the dice" on Diminishing Returns or wait for Ill Gotten Gains.
What you don't seem to really get is that in the situations where you can't cast Ad Nauseam, enough turns have past for you to accumulate the mana to cast the IT->BW->IGG chain or the more marginal IT->BW->D.Returns chain (Especially if you're running either Simian Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall).
2) Simian Spirit Guide is a love/hate card, while it decreases the wins off of Ad Nauseam, it increases the wins off of Diminishing Returns while being the strongest "missing" accelerant in the deck. Frankly, I think the number of games I lose to flipping Simian Spirit Guide is less than the number of games I win by playing Simian Spirit Guide. The problem is that most people only remember the times they die to its CC instead of the times they win the game off of him, so most people fail to put in the shear number of games to test the card properly.
3) It could all just be a question of risk tolerance. For whatever reason, the whole Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Mystical Tutor and 1 Chain of Vapor configurations is seriously slowing down TES in favor of "risk aversion." Personally, I think this "risk aversion" is antithetical to TES' philosophy, where it's speed is what dodges the hate instead of it's ability to sit on Top or Mystical for solutions.
Oh shit.
Oh shit is right. Not sure exactly what it does, exile? like in the GY?
Oh shit.
It counters all the cards, but it doesn't actually counter, it removes them from the game off the stack so they can never resolve.
This means that it can counter every copy, and the original made by storm.
Just makes it mandatory to play Orimīs Chant to protect your combo.
Against every single deck in the format...
I guess now would be the correct time to move to 8Chant.dec?
Let's first see if this thing is going to get played in non-blue SBs.
It's likely not to get played in blue decks, cause they usually don't need to specifically devote SB spaces at the combo matchup.
It will probably get some hype for some time, like extirpate, and then get out of the SBs.
Interesting card for vintage, though.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
It does a good job of hosing the counter wars.
Don't believe so:
Opp: Broken spell
You: Counter
Opp: Counter
You: Counter
Opp: Counter
You: Finally I can play this shit for free!
How often is this going to happen? If there are no cantrips involved it's totally unplayable in normal game circumstances. If there is one cantrip involved it's just quite unlikely (with you having this+another counter, and the opponent playing cantrip+spell+counter).
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
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