Interesting to hear you guys having good luck with your Moms (snicker). I've always loved using them in more traditional white weenie decks, and it'll be neat to test them again. Is there a good way to shoehorn some Cataclysm into the maindeck in place of Teeg for aggressive metagames (should I do anything more than -3 Teeg +3 Cat)? I'd probably go with real lands instead of fetches to recover more consistently, and Goyf likes Cat. One problem is the synergy between fetch shuffling and Library. Hmm.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Hi folks.
I have not checked the conversation on this deck in quite awhile.
I have to say that there are some cards that I messed with early on, and eventually decided against for metagame reasons. But the metagame is so different now, some of them might just be worth a try. In particular, maybe 8.5 Tails is worth another shot. It can be vialed in as an instant speed Mother of Runes effect, but the timing is inconvenient. You commonly have too many counters on the Vial by the time you have 3 mana handy to pull off the surprise protection effect. And he sucks with Wastelands in the deck. The one spot I see him being really cool these days is against Pridemages. You can actually protect your Jittes, Vials, and O.Rings from him.
I am all in favor of dropping the Isamarus from the deck entirely, but you guys really want to be thinking about the role you play when playing sans Isamaru, and replacing them with Mothers (which do not attack), you are really setting yourself up for the control role almost exclusively.
Against decks looking more like aggro, this may be a reasonable direction, but only if done correctly.
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Teeg + Cataclysm is OK. I play both against Landstill or StaX. You can Karakas/Flickerwisp Teeg before nuking the board. They can (and want) kill Teeg.Originally Posted by kirbysdl
The issue is Cataclysm itself. I still don't sure about how much I need it in my SB...
I think fetch >>> duals 'cause you can fetch basic and you'll have more food for Grunt.
The format becomes much faster theese days and DnT can't be accelerated to match the speed, so switching to more control is a natural move. But ofcourse not for every metagame.
Also, with the success people have with Mom our old friend True Believer becomes more annoying than ever against certain strategies. Probably not for maindeck, but surely needs a chance as SB material against Burn/Sligh, black discard like Deadguy or Eva Green and Storm.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 12-11-2009 at 06:25 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Yeah, I imagine T1 Plains, Mother of Runes; T2 Plains, True Believer to be a pretty strong opening versus a handful of traditionally problematic matchups. I might consider trying True Believers in the SB once more.
One more thing about Mom:
The feeling how they can't do a shit to prevent our Figures from growing huge is very satisfying.
Too badhas no Deathtouch creatures. I even start to thinking about Thornweald Archer and Ohran Viper in green splash...
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I'm re-considering Eight-and-a-Half-Tails these days, for the following reasons:
- It's a legend.
- Its ability protects _permanents_. Arbitrary ones. No Qasali Pridemage on your Oblivion Ring, Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte no more. No Vindicate on anything, no Oblivion Ring on your precious non-lands.
Vialing it in and then spending that 3 mana to undo a Lightning Bolt's harm I do imagine as being quite sexy. What do you think; does he deserve a chance? I think I'm going to try a 2-of.
Edit: Ah, Finn already tried to ignite that idscussion a few posts ago…
I also pondered using Light from Within for fun an testing these days. 5/5 Serra Avenger, 5/4 Kitchen Finks, 5/3 Flickerwisp - that doesn't sound so bad after all. Of course I did not do any testing yet, but it might be worth taking into consideration; what do you think?
I can't argue with "for fun" (I play Withering Wisps decks for fun) but I wouldn't be too optimistic about it. Most decks don't run Cataclysm these days and have adjusted their manabases accordingly, which means finding 4 isn't the easiest thing to do.
More along the lines of theory, it's like a Crusade, and people don't play Crusades (or similar cards). Since it doesn't do anything by itself, it's a bad card to draw when you're recovering from a sweeper, it can be turned into a dead card by the opponents concentrating on your creatures (which they're likely to do anyway), etc. Remember that the design philosophy of D&T was disruption on sticks. In other words, you hinder them while simultaneously using your disruption elements as attackers. In other words, you want flexible cards that have multiple uses. Crusade doesn't provide disruption nor built-in beats, so it gets cut.
If you're going to try something new, start with 8.5 Tails. And please let us know how he does. =)
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Wow, I just realized that Mother of Runes + Ethersworn Canonist = they can't kill any of your creatures with spot removal.
The further it goes, the more cheaty Mom seems to be...
The 8+Tails should do the trick too, too bad people playing Krosan Grip.
On the other hand, Swords and Pridemage are white...
8+Tails is manahungry like FoD and does the same as Mom, so I imagine he could fit in the deck if Isamaru is your 1-drop...
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
That's another very strong interaction indeed. I'm tempted to play Ethersworn Canonist or True Believer mainboard again - I wonder which one would have a greater impact on the problematic matchups of the deck (taking into account the protection Mother of Runes offers)…
My money are on Canonist 'cause she costs
Lately I've been disappointed with Jitte... When I run 3, I drew it little to often and as format becomes faster and more aggroish, people start playing more spot removal, wich means higher possibility to payfor Jitte, another
-mana Bolt or Swords. Also, I always have some usefull thing to do with my mana, so I move 1 Jitte to sideboard for one more creature.
So now my mono-
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
3 Mother of Runes
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Oblivion Ring
Side:
4 Orim's Chant
3 Cataclysm
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Glowrider
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Kitchen Finks
Last edited by eq.firemind; 12-16-2009 at 04:18 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I took Death & Taxes to a 30-40 man tournament (donīt remember how many player were there) and made 1. place. The meta was really annoying because i faced 6 (!) bant decks. (bant aggro, pro bant, bant survival, bant with ninjas and faeries, ...)
This is the list i played:
3x karakas
4x windswepth heath
4x savannah
4x wasteland
7x plains
3x mangara
4x mother of runes
4x tarmogoyf
3x qasali pridemage
3x serra avenger
3x kitchen finks
4x flickerwisp
2x gaddock teeg
4 aether vial
4x swords to plowshares
2x umezawas jitte
2x oblivion ring
sb:
2x choke
3x burrenton forge-tender
1x tivador
1x kitchen finks
1x gaddock teeg
2x relic
3x krosan grip
2x children of korlis
Some conclusions:
Mother of runes is just great. She is a so much better 1-drop then Isamaru. She scared my opponents so much that this card reminds me on goblin lackey. An uncountered / SToPed first round mother means serious troube for your opponent. Mother + Teeg shuts down a lot of common removal (swords, explosives, burn spells, wrath).
Tarmogoyf > Jötun Grunt. You canīt play both in the same deck and goyf is still the best threat green offers. With Qasali Pridemage you have a solid attacker that races your opponent quick. Mother helps protecting.
Qasali helps preboard against counterbalance and an ongoing Jitte from your opponent.
Kitchen finks was really fantastic. He can chump block all day and with 4 flickerwisp you get the life advantage you need to outrace your opponent.
I am not shure about Oblivion Ring. Its your only removal for humility and elspeth but it can get countered or nuked by krosan grip, qasali and trygon predator all day. In the future i wil try something else in that slot. Maybe krosan grip maindeck or Knight of the Reliquary. Knight fetches karakas and wastelands and maybe you can play another tool land as a 1-dro (kor haven, maze, the tabnernacle (wins you almost every game against newer dredge decks without flame-kin zealot)
What about combo? My list will have an autoloss to combo i think. No canonist and i didnt play any chants in the sb. It really depends on your meta. If you fear a meta full of combo then you should play something else.
Thanks for the list and congrats on the finish. How will you change the deck to better defeat bant, given that it's all over your meta? Obviously you did well enough against it, but you seemed to be annoyed with it at the same time so it probably wasn't terribly easy.
Would you ever consider a basic Forest in the main, or are 5 non-white sources too many?
I totally understand the autoloss to combo attitude; D&T has had a hard time with it since the beginning, often running 8 or more anti-combo cards in its side.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Why no Hierarchs?
Which Hierarch? The big one is too costly, and I'm not sure we gain much from the little one.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Mom is obviously broken, but this isn't true. Mom requires tapping. Also, if you use Mom for any of her other jobs, like blocking or whatever. Also, you can burn a creature endstep, then burn a creature during your mainphase.
But yes, Mom protecting lockout elements is quite nice.
Does the Zendikar release force the inclusion of Kor Skyfisher into this deck ?
Judge Julez
...the final judgement
This was discussed two pages back, together with the other stuff from Zendilkar.
kitchen finks is better and you dont need to ramp up your vial @4 which is bad, because you have no other 4cc drop and you always want to play flickerwisp & mangara with vial.
pcccp,
I've got a question about your last list:
Maybe -2 O-Ring, +2 Eternal Witness?
Witness can bring back Swords, Wasteland, Qasali and everything they countered/killed and seems nutz with Wisps.
Thein her cost is a problem, but you always want to have Vial with 3 counters...
Another card I want to discuss is Scryb Ranger. It is nice with Mom, awesome with Mangara, great against Merfolks, Faerie Stompy and Thresh's 3-drops (Trygon, War Monk, Lorescale, Clique), carries Jitte. I'm working on
Last edited by eq.firemind; 12-21-2009 at 09:15 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Before i went to the tournament i was thinking exactly the same way. I think Eternal witness would be a bomb when you play 4 Flickerwisp. I was although looking at Scryb Ranger as a 2cc Creature with pro blue against merfolk. I havenīt thought about the great possibilities with mangara and and mother and the more i think about it i am getting exited.pcccp,
I've got a question about your last list:
Maybe -2 O-Ring, +2 Eternal Witness?
Witness can bring back Swords, Wasteland, Qasali and everything they countered/killed and seems nutz with Wisps.
The
Another card I want to discuss is Scryb Ranger. It is nice with Mom, awesome with Mangara, great against Merfolks, Faerie Stompy and Thresh's 3-drops (Trygon, War Monk, Lorescale, Clique), carries Jitte. I'm working on
I build a quick D&T Survival list before the tournament with the loyal retainers + iona combo in it, tested it and thought, that i would always go for the combo when i have survival on the board and not for the other stuff like mangara. For a rough start with survival i used this d&t list from Till Micheler and replace the 4 living wish with 3 survival + 1 squee:
# Trader-Liga Dülmen - Legacy - Okt/2009
# Source: Trader
# Date: 11. Oct 2009
# Place: 4th
# Participants: 57
creature [25]
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [4]
4 Living Wish
artifact [4]
4 Aether Vial
land [23]
1 Forest
3 Karakas
3 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
----
Living Wish brings you one creature of your choice if uncountered, survial brings you endless solutions if unanswered.
One thing in a d&t survival variant that would be really really good is haste. Vialing in Mother, Mangara, Scryb Ranger with haste is a bomb. Instant protection, removal etc. is absolutly nuts.
So i would start with 3-4 Survival + 1 Squee + 1 Anger, maybe 1 Plateau and 1 Taiga instead of 2 plains.
On my opinion any survival lists has to be good and playable without survival, because pithing needle would shut down the deck completely. Thats the reason why welder survival isnīt played anymore. Death and Texas works fine without any drawengine and without survival, so adding survival should not be a problem because you only have to cut maybe 5 cards for it. I am lucky to have some free time the next couple of days and i will test all these new ideas.
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