I guess it comes to Gamble getting anything and Tutor getting, hmm.. Loam and Gamble + possible 1-ofs? Tolaria West is quite mana intensive and absolutely needs heavier commitment on blue. I want to use my mana for activating manlands and using Ports. 3cc sorcery-speed tutor quite doesn't sound too appealing when you compare it to Gamble.
Mystical Tutor in my opinion also contributes to making the deck vulnerable to Chalice of The Void. Basically all the business cards besides loam we want to see in opening hand are shut down by Chalice for 1 and that is the reason I also want to advocate playing Burning Wish or Intuition, but I'm not experienced with the blue splash so I leave that to others.
About Upheaval being difficult to cast: I was referring to the need of double blue, which is two blue mana more than this (moxless) GRW-build has access to. It might work for the blue version, but IMO that is just a different deck.
I usually side in some form of graveyard hate when playing against enchantress to nullify Replenish. Bojuka Bog is the newest toy in lands' arsenal. Karmic Justice is bollocky, but if they are in postition to nuke your whole board due to your sweeper, you were not going to win that game anyway. After all, you are the premiere permanent deck. I'm more afraid of Sterling Grove, as it makes removal of Wheel of Sun and Moon, KJ or any other obstacle on your way a pain between your buttocks.
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This build is awesome!Originally Posted by Mictlantecuhtli
Gargoyle castle rocks, it's a little mana intensive but a 3/4 flyer every turn is nice and you don't have to commit more mana every turn if you don't want to
I run a crucible instead of the mindslaver, 12 mana is just silly when compared to just wasteland/ghost quarter every turn, I don't see a reason to try and ruin thier game by taking thier turn when we already have them locked out
I was a little concerned about the loss of gamble but the 1 card possibly provided by gamble is almost never as good as just playing intuituon and setting up a real engine, you should be playing intuiton turn 2 most of the time anyways, you shouldn't need to gamble for manabond/exploration anyways, why would anyone keep an opening hand without one?
intuition allows a lot more silver bullet style approach and is testing very well so far
Does anyone not run a ghost quarter now?
The basic mountains from zoo/burn are a real pita without it, they try to PoP you out of the game every upkeep that you don't have chasm, recurring glacial chasm only works for so long post board when they get tormods etc
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I ran a build very similar to this but with 2 glacial chasms in the deck and got a top 8 finish in a 40 player tournament thursday evening. This is definitely a build worth expanding on. I played goblins, elves and UG counter control (no mongoose or countertop). This deck has a much easier time getting through bigger creatures than the manlands version. Glacial Chasm is definitely the MVP of this build as it allows the deck to trigger valakut continuously while keeping the opponent completely locked out of the game.
I didnt play any combo decks to test the effectiveness of it but this seems to be a bit more resilient to graveyard hate overall with more cycling lands making it easier to protect life from the loam.A downside is that youre even more reliant on getting a manabond or exploration to stick on the board and there arent any proper answers to blood moon. I may have to put in a couple basic forests somewhere or get riftstone portal back in the deck.
this deck blows hard against counterbalance, what do we do against them just pray for krosan grip?
they always have daze/FoW for exploration/manabond, daze is easy but FoW blows as with most decks
I'm not sure why people are leaning so far away from the 43 land builds and going to more of a 32 land build. It opens you up for counters and the older ones had no problem with that. You just man-landed them to death and never bothered to cast anything. I like the new tricks and all, but I have been going slowly back to the heavier man-land version.
anyone ever experiment with Call the Skybreaker? Seems strong, because its a faster clock than Gargoyle Castle and it works even under a moon effect.
I have been testing this deck with varied success and was wondering if anyone more experienced has any suggestions. I am pretty much sold on Intuition over Burning Wish because it is more powerful in the abstract (tutor for three cards instead of one) and because it enables ridiculous Academy Ruins shenanigans. I've been playing around with a few singleton silver bullets in the main and board to be fetched up w/ Intuition. Theoretically they should improve inevitability in particular match-ups, but whether they do still remains to be seen.
37 Lands:
Tools:
4x Manabond
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
1x Engineered Explosives
Meat:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Maze of Ith
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Green Fetch
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Forest
2x Barbarian Ring
1x Treetop Village
1x Raging Ravine
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
4x Zuran Orb
3x Krosan Grip
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Flame Jab
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
A few explanations:
Raging Ravine: Ends the game fast if you need to. He can swing into large creatures, and sometimes you can double-activate him or maze him after he gets a counter. Still casts all your spells unlike Nantuko Monastery.
Savannah: Allows you to hard-cast Ray of Revelation post-board.
Ruins/Explosives: One of the reasons I think Intution is so strong; some decks just can't beat this. Also prevents decking.
Riftstone Portal/Flame Jab: I think I'm still a dog to moon effects; this might not be enough but I've yet to test those match-ups sufficiently.
Crucible: I'm not sure how good this is. Sometimes I side it in for a loam to mess up their graveyard hate. (They can crypt/extirpate lands but not the engine itself.) It's also good against Ground Seal and Counterbalance lock.
Oblivion Stone: This is my grasping-at-straws attempt to answer Progenitus. In my testing that stupid hydra has been the bane of the deck. They land early hierarchs and fetch out basics, so its hard to keep them off of 4 mana. Once he lands they just Force your Life targeting Glacial Chasm to swing for a billion. This allows you to get him off the board permanently after Ruinsing enough to get through their countermagic but its obviously slow. I have also thought about including Ensnaring Bridge.
O Stone is also really good against Enchantress. Blow up their board and Bojuka Bog them to shut down Replenish.
Thoughts, suggestions?
CtS is a decent idea. It gets around a lot of things: Counterbalance, Moons, Iona Green, it should definetely be tested.
I've been using it to get around Counterbalance. It also answers Tombstalker well.
What are people's thoughts on going to 2x Tabernacle (if you have them available)
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I find one is enough, but it's a meta choice really. I run Tolaria Wests so it is always easy to fecth it when i need it, but it is perfectly fine to run one MD and one SB (or even 2 main) in non-blue lists to increase their chances of seeing it.
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I'm curious on one thing. How bad usually is the match up against Team America? It showed me what a powerhouse it can be last weekend and since I have never played against it before I wondered how bad this is normally. It tore me a new one in the finals no less. Then he boarded into Helm/Leyline combo and I didn't have much for that either even after I saw it on a scouting.
I play the blue version like the SCG 5k one except I run Crucibles, Stax, and a few other touches main. Basically the same though. I hate the Mindslaver btw, I tried it and it's just not worth it other than it's a fun kill, but who needs those.
The 2nd Tabernacle depends on how much Tutors you play. WIth Intuition and Tolaria West it is certainly not needed, but if you play a straight build, like with Mulch or Burning Wish, I would say that 2 Tabernacles are a good decision.
Against Team America you should be ahead in G1. You both try to attack the opponent's Mana Base, but you just have more stuff and it is unlikely (not impossible) that they Mana Screw you. They have only a few creatures, so Maze of Ith is really good and they also don't have a long term solution to Loam. Their creatures are big, though, and they might Wasteland the Maze twice to get 10 points through. Overall I would cakll this a favorbale G1, especially because their Mana Base is weak and you should be able to get them there.
For G2 it depends on their sideboard. If they transform into a weird combo deck and draw Leyline into the Opener you will probably lose to the combination of fast kill + Yard hate. If they don't get it into their opening hand, they will lose about 95% because they would have to get to 2BB which should be easy to prevent, especially because they don't have any other relevant SB cards and their hand polluted with Helms and drawn Leylines.
Has anyone else seen this...?
I'm really looking forward to testing Realms Uncharted, however, i'm still not entirely sure what do i want to take out for it. It certainly won't be Intuition because the ability to find Life from the Loam is too important in the deck. My other tutor in the deck is Tolaria West but that's a land and i'm a bit reluctant to further decrease the number of lands (running 38 at the moment).
That said, this card will obviously have a place in some incarnation of the deck and i'm pre-ordering a playset as soon as i can.
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Hm, Gifts Ungiven costs one more mana and let's you also tutor for LftL, so I'm not sold on this one.
Gifts is also blue. I prefer the build to be GRw. If you need Life, use Gamble. This works well for getting Barbarian Ring, Glacial Chasm, a needed man-land, Tabernacle, even a color fix if you want to play a Ring or Gamble. I wouldn't run more than two, maybe as a one-off.
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I doubt I will use it at all. It has one fatal flaw. It doesn't get Loam.
When I play Lands, I want an opening hand of Exploration (1 or 2) or a Manabond. I'm quite happy if I see that. Next best is to have that hand with an Intuition or Loam in it. Intuition since I will be only concerned with getting Loam online.
This new card doesn't help this strategy at all. Gamble is actually better for this purpose. If you want to toss blue out, I guess you could use it, but I still would sooner go with Gamble. I personally think Blue is here to stay since the stunts you can do with Academy Ruins more than earns it's spot and intuition is exactly what you need in a tutor.
I can easily see it being used in those versions that run more on Valukut than Loam though. It's not great, but it will provide you a slow setup. I'll pick them up for Standard though. It's quite good for that and might even find a quick use in those decks than can handle Dark Depths/Grim Discovery.
this card just doesnt fit into this deck. everything that you could use it, for intuition does plus more. i can see it being an interesting budget option if the price of intuition rises, but other than that the deck is already so strong without the inclusion, that the testing needed to find out this card is just a worse intuition just isnt worth the time to me. i could see this deck being included in a new from of land control deck that runs treasure hunt maybe and more silver bullet lands. ill have to try that out
What are the thoughts on Spitting Image, since we're talking about cards with Retrace?
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