New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

[Koby]

I think that this discussion is rather stimulating, and at least a departure from "remove the reserve list" and "ban X card this month". If nothing else, it gives an opportunity for the community to weigh in on how a new format (real or not) would effect Legacy popularity, the frequency of Legacy tournaments, and whether that action will lead to better Eternal formats seeing high-level support (think more GPs, PTQs, etc).

That in itself is nothing insignificant, even if it is a wild tangent.

[ktkenshinx]

You have posted 137 times on this forum, nine in this thread to offer exceedingly pretentious and convoluted contributions. What exactly has been productive here and what exactly has really been revealed ? That many people here fell for a massive troll post on another website ? That you can talk out your ass for hours and still not say anything ? You dont like UW Tempo too do you ?

If WotC wanted to know such information about a new format, why wouldnt they just post a poll on their website like they normally do ? And was the other thread closed due to lack of evidence or like you say, due to people repeating posts ? I can tell you which of those two makes more sense to me, but I only have the balls to speak for myself not everyone and everything as a whole. You act like you know everything, but the more you say, it shows you really know nothing at all.

I see no reason for your hostility. This is a friendly conversation about an interesting possibility. Your entire post is directed at me as a person and poster, not to this thread and the topic at hand. If you disagree about this thread's relevance, and you clearly seem to disagree, then you need not post at all.

Ruckus: I agree that this thread is better than most of the other theoertical, speculative ones on the "Format and Article Discussion" subforum. Sure, it has minimal proof, but speculation about this hypothetical format is no worse than speculation about banning/unbanning cards. If nothing else, it was a nice change of pace from the usual.

-ktkenshinx-

[Trans Am]

*yawn*

Nothing was hostile on my end. If it was hostile, it would have read something like:

Why do the **** with anime avatars always seem to be the ones who obnoxiously sign each post with their username like anyone actually gives a fuck or was unsure who wrote it ? Wait, dont answer that, just shut the fuck up.

Personally, I would rather discuss WotC legalizing and seriously supporting a non-online pauper/peasant format, if I had to. And by "minimal proof" you meant virtually zero, right ? The difference between this and speculation about banning/unbanning, is that there is a possibility some of the cards mentioned might actually get banned or unbanned. This is a lot closer to speculating on cards that dont actually exist, but some people would just like them to.

And another. I don't see you lasting long here. Two day temp-ban. - Bardo


No, permaban. -zilla

[majikal]

I think this thread has run its course.

[Vacrix]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Why do people keep saying that they want pauper on paper? Isn't pauper a very stagnant format?

[Koby]

The same people who want to play Paper Pauper - don't want to face Storm Combo decks.

They just end up playing random ban lists at every different store there is no central authority on how to play. It's mostly a way to introduce new players into constructed.

[mchainmail]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

Our area has a good dozen players who have tier 1-3 decks and play regularly, if not more. And we're in Bethlehem, PA, which is neither a rich area nor extremely urban.

[2Rach]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

[jrsthethird]

Our area has a good dozen players who have tier 1-3 decks and play regularly, if not more. And we're in Bethlehem, PA, which is neither a rich area nor extremely urban.

We have more than a dozen; I can name a dozen off the top of my head without considering anyone from Lehigh.

I'd say it's almost twice that.

We have monthly local tournaments, and as far as larger ones go, we always have at least 6 people attending the monthly tournaments in Vestal, NY, which is 2.5 hours away. I'm sure more people would go if they weren't going to PTQ's on the same day.

[Nightmare]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

Syracuse has an ebb and flow of players, but we consistently have about 16 at our weekly events and travel quite a bit (although no one travels like the VA guys). While our ratings are rather inbred (we trade the same 100 points between around 25 different players over and over again), I would consider our metagame one of the most competitive in the country - any of the regular players have an honest shot at top 8 in a given large event.

[quadibloc]

Why doesn't Wizards simply remove the reprint policy? I don't see how they can attract more Legacy players without somehow making Legacy staples more easily obtainable at a reasonable price.

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.

About the onetime expense vs. over time: Recently I did a quick mental addition of how much I spend on magic cards, per year. After adding up all the little draft expenses, prereleases, tournament fees, it came to 500$. I was stunned: I had no idea how I got that money, and why I was spending it. The answer came shortly after: it was fun, and it never seems like that much spread out over so long.

I have a feeling that this is one of the two reasons that Standard is so alluring to new players. The first reason is that everyone plays it, the second reason is that the perceived cost is so low.

Precisely. The argument that "if you can afford to play Standard, you can still afford to play Legacy" doesn't make sense because no one would really think that playing that much just to play a CCG really makes sense.

But people can end up accidentally spending more than they intend to.

A new From the Vaults: Staples set could bring back some old school Legacy cards into the new format, but not impact preexisting Extended and Standard decks. This would simply be a policy change on Wizards part, and as we know, they are perfectly alright with making policy changes.

Sets like From the Vaults and Duel Decks don't affect format legality at all. Not only don't the cards in them become Standard-legal if they aren't already, but they also don't become Extended-legal if they aren't already. So, if the new format starts at Mercadian Masques, the only way to bring a card from before that into the new format would be to include it in a current set sold in boosters - thus making it Standard-legal as well.

Yes, a policy change is certainly possible, but this would be so major that I think it would be very unlikely. Also, a card that was better than Foil, but not as good as Force of Will, might not necessarily be so unbalancing that it couldn't be safely introduced into Standard.

If Wizards made a new format, Extended Extended/Overextended/Esquared/Double E/whatever, then that would already be a huge slap in the face for Legacy. In this alternate history, Wizards' unwillingness to do something for the Legacy format has no bearing whatsoever on their willingness to do it for a new format. Indeed they would have every incentive to support this new format, whatever that would take.
That said, FoW is a staple that is simply un-needed in the new format. There is nothing that including FoW accomplishes that a new and relatively modest Banned (or even Restricted) list would not accomplish. Hypothetical arguments about a potential FTV set are all predicated on the necessity of FoW and other staples, a necessity that is completely unproven.

Given that it's an Eternal format, and Vintage and Legacy are given names that mean "something old", but with strong positive connotations, I think that the actual name of the new format might end up being something like "Heritage".

And they're not trying to slap Legacy in the face. They simply dare not reprint the cards Legacy needs, for reasons that have nothing directly to do with Legacy.

I strongly suspect that the new format would have a banned list instead of a restricted list, and my guess is that Skullclamp, Aether Vial, and Sensei's Divining Top would all be on it, but Dark Ritual would not be. I would be inclined to prefer having Force of Will in the format, though, to having its combo possibilities stripped out by banning a lot of cards. Too many banned cards send a message that "we're letting you play with these sets, but not really".

However, banning everything that's banned in Legacy (except for cards not in the format, and cards that need to work with other cards not in the format) wouldn't be banning too many cards. And Worldgorger Dragon is banned in Legacy.

Is this likely to result, as some have feared, in a format with too many possibilities for combos? And is it the case that in such a format, counterspells keep things from getting too wild? Even if this is the case, it has seemed to me that you are likely to be right that there should be balancing elements already present, even though there is no Force of Will in the format. And they could print that in the next Core Set as a Mythic if they really had to.

But are there other counters one could safely use on turn 1? Yes. There's Misdirection. And there's Foil; yes, it's more expensive than Force of Will in that application, but if that's what people need to use to keep from being flattened by an insane combo, they will use it. (On turn 1 or turn 2, before you have enough lands out there, you probably will have Islands in hand you haven't had the chance to play yet.)

And there's Counterspell, a nice economical general-purpose counter.

And there's Pact of Negation for later in the game, when you do have lands out there, but you don't happen to have enough of them untapped right now.

Except for Mana Drain and Force of Will, there is not a lot in the way of counters that had been driven from the game by the time of Mercadian Masques.

[DragoFireheart]

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.

I don't buy that argument considering that everyones favorite super bear is going for $60+ even though he isn't in Standard anymore. I'm not asking Wizards to reprint Force of Will in every core set: just make a set that brings back most of the really good Legacy staples.

And I doubt the older cards would drop in value. Take a look at the various dual lands: even though they are the same in the game, the fact that some are from older sets makes them double the value of ones in new sets. The reprinting of Force of Will will not reduce the value of the old one since they are from different sets and collectors will still want them for their collection.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

You buy your duals once and you are done. You buy the staples you know will be needed once and you're done. Then you add a few cards here and there. Legacy is still cheaper than Standard unless you plan to play Standard for a very limited timeframe.

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.

[Tacosnape]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

I think it's still true. Some cards have -started out- in Standard recently booking $50-$70. The boom hasn't just affected Legacy. Underground Seas and Tarmogoyfs aren't all that much more expensive than Jace the Mind Sculptors started out. And Forces cost less, actually.

While we're on the subject, how much would reprinting Force of Will actually wreck various formats?

[ktkenshinx]

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.

I don't buy that argument considering that everyones favorite super bear is going for $60+ even though he isn't in Standard anymore. I'm not asking Wizards to reprint Force of Will in every core set: just make a set that brings back most of the really good Legacy staples.

And I doubt the older cards would drop in value. Take a look at the various dual lands: even though they are the same in the game, the fact that some are from older sets makes them double the value of ones in new sets. The reprinting of Force of Will will not reduce the value of the old one since they are from different sets and collectors will still want them for their collection.

You two are totally right in the economic implications of your statements. Unfortunately, Wizards just doesn't care. They have already been there and done that with the Reserved List, and it is now a closed issue. The good news is that quite a few Legacy staples are not on that list, although I admit that the new format would lose some important cards. One of the reasons that I believe the original post about this new format is the Reserved List changes. Why would they not alter it, knowing that so many players wanted it undone? Did they really care that much about collectors, to whom they had no legal obligation? Or was there some other trick up their sleeves? This new format might be that trick. Wizards could elegantly please both the collectors and their high value cards as well as the players who want to use older decks and strategies. Sure, they would snub a number of old and relevant sets (Urza's and Tempest most notably), but in the end, it would probably work out in Magic's favor.

Precisely. The argument that "if you can afford to play Standard, you can still afford to play Legacy" doesn't make sense because no one would really think that playing that much just to play a CCG really makes sense.

But people can end up accidentally spending more than they intend to.

The "Accidental spending" phenomenon is huge in Magic, especially with new players. I have a friend at college who just got into Magic, a smart guy majoring in economics and political science. We explained to him that the smart thing for him to do would be to learn the game, figure out what format he wanted to play, and then buy the format's staples. My friend absolutely understood this suggestion and the logic behind it, but he did not follow it. He bought, and continues to buy, booster boxes, packs, non-staple singles, etc. He has competitive decks and plays in legitimate tournaments across various formats, but he avoids serious investment. Why? Magic is a fun, COLLECTIBLE card game.

It is unfair to assume that all Magic players are rational economic agents. Most of them see a fun, flavorful, sick card and immediately want 4. Most of them have deck designs that are highly unviable in a tournament, but are damn fun to play in the kitchen with friends. Standard players, often being the youngest and most recent additions to the Magic community, are often effected by this phenomenon. They don't intend on spending over 1500 bucks on their random commons and uncommons, along with a bunch of unplayable rares, but in the end it happens anyway. Because of this economic propensity, Legacy will always have problems as a format.

And they're not trying to slap Legacy in the face. They simply dare not reprint the cards Legacy needs, for reasons that have nothing directly to do with Legacy.

While Wizards probably has nothing against this format, their Reserved List "changes" ended up being a powerful slap. Intent doesn't matter as much as results. The result was a lot of pissed off Legacy players. A ton of Legacy players petitioned really hard to get that lifted, both on this site and on others (not to mention emails, blog posts, letters, personal appeals, outside articles, etc.) The Reserved List has the most impact on the Legacy community, so we were its strongest opponents. Yet, Wizards chose collectors over players. They knew what the players wanted, and they chose not to act on our behalf. That is a stinging blow.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I firmly believe that the Banned List is a critical component of this new format, and that D-Rit would not need to be banned. All of the current Extended banned cards, however, would. Affinity would be a monster in this new format, especially with its gains from the Alara block.

Tentatively, I would advise the following to be banned:

Entomb (On the play there are basically no answers to this. Especially the future D-Rit/Entomb/Death combo)
Aether Vial (Too ubiquitous. Would make aggro based strategies nuts, especially Affinity)
Skullclamp (rofl...Skullclamp...)
Sensei's Divining Top (Time constraints are bad. Countertop might also be too dominant for the new format)
Disciple of the Vault (Affinity already might be out of control. Wizards might want to minimize that dominance to avoid the 4 maindecked Oxidizes).

That would probably suffice to keep things in order. What are people's thoughts on all this? Economic incentives? Banned list? Slaps in the face? etc.?

-ktkenshinx-

[jrsthethird]

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.

Why black? You should mean blue....

CounterTop costs over $1300 to build from scratch.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

I live in Platteville WI and we get at least 15 - 20 players at our weekly Legacy event.

[Xero]

If this is real, I think it might be more of a blow to Extended than Legacy. Extended is actually terrible now, while Legacy is more interesting. Now, if Wizards supports this format and goes back to totally ignoring Legacy, that would suck for the format.

Tentatively, I would advise the following to be banned:

Entomb (On the play there are basically no answers to this. Especially the future D-Rit/Entomb/Death combo)
Aether Vial (Too ubiquitous. Would make aggro based strategies nuts, especially Affinity)
Skullclamp (rofl...Skullclamp...)
Sensei's Divining Top (Time constraints are bad. Countertop might also be too dominant for the new format)
Disciple of the Vault (Affinity already might be out of control. Wizards might want to minimize that dominance to avoid the 4 maindecked Oxidizes).

That would probably suffice to keep things in order. What are people's thoughts on all this? Economic incentives? Banned list? Slaps in the face? etc.?

-ktkenshinx-

They need to ban a storm combo piece, like Dark Ritual, Mind's Desire, and/or Tendrils. I would hope that they woulldn't ban Vial or Top. Affinity is barely played in Extended now, and this hypothetical format is more powerful than Extended. Also, I think tribal decks need Vial to in order to compete with Zoo, which I think would be the obvious aggro deck in the format.

[cdr]

MTGSal finally locked the thread and admitted there was zero evidence anything was ever true about it in the first place. I have no clue why they let it run as long as they did, usually they're good about cleaning up unsubstantiated garbage.