Originally Posted by ryO!
Fail.
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
Fact is that beside France in nearly every European country Vv-survival is less popular than in the US (Germany, Spain, Italy and Portugal (no info about the UK though)
Epic fail. In fact why even react to this nonsense....I think the reality of France is that they are as bad at Legacy as everything else. Any meta that puts Hivemind and Elfball consistantly in the top 8 doesn't deserve to be mentioned in a serious conversation.
Achtung: Panzer!
Except they don't. If it were Landstill putting up these numbers, people would be discussing how to beat it, not asking for Standstill and Mishra's Factory to be banned. Saying "people boarded in hate and still lost, the deck must be broken" is stupid. I hate to say it, it's not nice and it's not polite, but if you think you can play whatever 60 cards you want and board in 5 or 6 hate cards to beat a tier one deck, you're completely and utterly retarded. It'd be like me throwing together a blue deck with 20 counters and no removal and then asking for Nacatl and Goyf to be banned. It's just not fair, guys. Even after I board in 4 CoP:Greens I still lose to Zoo...
You need to construct your deck with the field in mind. If you're maining 6 to 8 hate cards (and I use the term loosely since things like Spell Snare and Pridemage could be considered hate) and still losing, then you've got a problem. Then you're Affinity in T2 all over again. But when you stubbornly insist that you can play your favorite deck and just board to beat your bad matchups, you're delusional. If you give game 1 up as a loss, even if you're 70% against a deck post board (which is a tough number to hit), you're STILL <50% on the match. You need to be able to win game 1 to have a reasonable chance of winning a match. And there are decks that can do it. But if you're not playing them in a field that you know is going to be filled with a given deck, you have no one to blame but yourself.
The Source: Your source for whining about new Tier 1 decks?
Edit: Not you Mikey. Just the general nature of some people in this thread.
This thread makes me sad.
Oh, I'm with you Chan. People have been maining creature hate since the dawn of Magic. It's not seen as a sign of a warped metagame when Zoo packs Pridemages main and Grips in board. Even back in the day, 9 land Stompy mained Lyrist and boarded Emerald Charms and WW had Soltari Visionary or Disenchant floating around. But try suggesting to people that they need to run Extirpate or Relic in their 60 and they act like the sky is falling.
If you look at decks like the UG Vengevivals, they rely so heavily on Vine as their first and primary line to victory that a single Extirpate is often enough to win the game by itself. You couldn't beat Countertop with a single card. Is anyone really scared of getting beat down with Wallas and Trinket Mages?
How about Goyfs and KoTRs?
If you are really ancient like me you remember when 4x Disenchant was the start of any deck list that intended to contain white. People have gotten away from maindeck Art/Enchant hate. Adjust or die.
As for their dreaded Goyf's and KotR they are spending a card to search these out and a card to perform the search. This at the cost of getting a good man. Surely you can deal with good men? It's legacy.
He also specifically said UG Survival. Most of those lists are madness decks with survival and vines, they don't run goyfs or KOTRs.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I say ban [insert card name here] only in the US. The deck clearly isn't causing that much trouble in Europe.
Some U/G verisons are starting to run Goyfs. A deck or 2 at the Boxburogh event ran Gofys. I'm currently texting a list in U/G with Gofys to see how they work.
A friend of mine tested the mono-green list by Alix Hatfield and goyf seems to be the worst creature in the deck. The deck is strong because of the synergy between the creatures and goyf just is not being synergistic with anything and is just there because there's nothing better apparently.
Achtung: Panzer!
Like I read a while ago, Goyf has great synergy with playing Magic, so no wonder he can't find anything better.
"Want all, lose all."
There is nothing better TBQH. The thing about gofy is that he's still the best cheap beater. He may not be able to drop Veggies, but he'll eat removal/counters that could have been used on your veggies or SOTF/Fauna Shaman. You'll have him both pre and post board so your deck doesn't fold to a single Extirpate.
Edit:
I believe the issue is pre-board Goyf may seem bad, but once post board comes around he will shine when you add a backup plan to him (be it a tool box + Squee, Goblin Nabob or Natural Order + Progenitus. Furthermore, if people try to be cute and have main-decked hate for the yard or SoTF, you have a main-decked backup plan.
Last edited by DragoFireheart; 11-11-2010 at 04:33 PM.
Yeah obviously in France we don't know how to play legacy... Btw I would add that Nassif is such a bad french player that he won the gp in the US...
Oh, and tell me why a meta with belcher, gob, quinn or NH would be more serious ?
Forgive my bad English...
I think mostly nostalgia is keeping up the "don't ban survival!" movement. Yell at people to l2p all you want, but unless something changes in the next month (or possibly next 4) I have a feeling survival will get the axe. First of all, it should be abundantly obvious by now that dealing with VV Survival isn't a matter of packing some simple hate cards and rolling with it. This isn't Dredge; its not even ANT, which has clear predators. Yes, eventually sideboards may be twisted and beaten into some monstrous shape that will bring about an acceptable win % vs survival, but that's exactly what shouldn't be happening. Affinity didn't win worlds that year, but did anyone think that maindeck Oxidize was a good sign?
Also they're not going to ban vengevine- they really won't. Not only for purely $-related reasons*, but also for the simple reason that survival is the engine, it's the enabler, it's the problem. Vengevine is amazing but many amazing creatures have been and will continue to be printed. Wizards will never restrict their future design space to accomodate survival if it comes to banning either VV or suvival.
Survival has always been broken, but its been acceptably broken. With new cards the brokenness seems to have increased to unacceptable levels. I guess we'll see.
*Seriously? They're going to ban one of the most expensive recent cards which will keep legacy players busting new packs? over the decades old card that lives in the second hard market alone?
Haha I'm in the US and I would like to add that US players are awesome because we all play the deck that is popular and we refuse to play other decks and just like sticking to what is 'good', it's just like how proxied Vintage tournaments in the US leads to a limited variety of Oath, Workshop, Tezz, Gush decks as opposed to the diversity of EU Vintage metagames which are attributed to non-proxy events. Clearly the US metagame is most superior and representative on what real magic should be.
(Trollin the US somewhat because I'm a little annoyed by our metagame environment which really makes no sense to me. Oh well).
I am not really good in Englis but I think that you are taking my defence.
I would just add that not considering elfball as a good deck is clearly a proof that you dunno what legacy really is.
Forgive my bad English...
@ Frenchy-man, metalwalker is criticizing his own metagame in the US. He means no offense.
@ Critic, I think we should be more mature here. All metagames are different. I admit elfball is not a Tier 1 deck, its a belcher deck that is vulnerable to STP/Force, Chalice @ 1... the list goes on. But if unprepared, people will laugh it off as Jank elves and then get blown out by turn 2 the nuts. Its not very strong, but neither is it terrible as well.
As for the French, I respect you for playing decks you like and for being different! Culturally I think the US just likes playing the strongest decks and whatever wins. But that isn't exactly a good thing.
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