[Deck] Berserk Stompy

[Mr. Safety]

I've done splits like that with other creatures before, it really seems to be an option to me. Even some "unjustified" splits, like 3 Scryb / 3 Skarrg, in which Skarrg is probably better, can be justified by Moat and chump blocking some flyer. Seems like every creature of ours got an advantage and disadvantage over the others on the pile.

NecroYawgmoth is right, we've been discussing this, and I'm currently splitting 3/3 Nettle/Scryb to test their effectiveness. Against counterspells control, I'd rather have power 2 1cc's, but against aggro and mostly Tarmogoyf, I like flying better. What's the general oppinion and current choices?

I've been thinking about the VengeVival matchup, too...and there doesn't seem to be any clear answer. Here are a few ideas:

Meekstone - it's cheap, which we like, and doesn't require a splash color. All of our dudes will untap (save Kavu Predator) but he would be the sideboard sub. It means you'll only take one hit from a Vengevine...and then it's locked out of the game until they deal with Meekstone. It may only work for 1-2 turns, but that may just be enough to make it count. In some cases you would have to chump block Vengvine to stay alive, but you CAN create a soft lock with Meekstone.

Elvish Visionary - basically a chump w/cantrip so he replaces himself. Probably not worth even testing, but the ability to chump with auto-replacement sounds sort of good...

Manamorphose - this lets us essentially play 56 cards...it cantrips so it replaces itself right off, and can help us get more consistent draws. Works REALLY well with an active Sylvan Library.

Leyline of the Void - you have to dedicate 4 slots in the board to it so you can play it for free, and then you have to mulligan aggressively so you can open the game with it. This seems risky, but a potential weapon. Need playtesting.

[Gui]

Pithing Needle and Gleeful Sabotage are by far the best options, imo. Needle also shuts Shaman and Mongrel, while Gleeful also kills their everplayed Jitte

[paeng4983]

Pithing Needle and Gleeful Sabotage are by far the best options...

i might get faerie macabre back in my SB list.
she have this surprise factor against v.v sur decks.
:)

L.O.T_void? then mulligan aggressively? in a mono green deck? bad idea....
although i like the meekstone. i'd give that artifact a try

Gleeful Sabotage? why play it?

[Gui]

i might get faerie macabre back in my SB list.
she have this surprise factor against v.v sur decks.
:)

L.O.T_void? then mulligan aggressively? in a mono green deck? bad idea....
although i like the meekstone. i'd give that artifact a try

Gleeful Sabotage? why play it?

To put it simple: Gleeful Sabotage is the best disenchant effect we have.

For those who don't know how Gleeful Sabotage works: Gleeful got conspire, which means you can tap 2 green creature and copy it into the pile. The copy isn't casted, so that chalice won't trigger for it. The same is valid for Counterbalance, although a good player will try to hardcounter the copy and balancecounter the casted spell.

So, the reasons for that are as follow:
a) Most of the games, we'll be sitting at 1~2 mana, unless we increase out manabase. Thus, Krosan Grip is subpar.
b) Instant speed isn't better than being able to override CB+Top or Chalice of the Void @2, thus, Naturalize is subpar
c) 1cc removals (oxidizes and such) won't ever override CB+Top or Chalice @1, being subpar.
d) Seal of Primordium has to be cast before an stabilished CB+Top or Chalice@2, so it's a bad topdeck
e) Against Vengevines, Krosan Grip is subpar because of it's speed, it won't enter turn 2 unless you got ESGs, and by turn 3, a resolved Survival will already have 2-4 Vengevines.
f) Against Enchantress, Stax and Affinity, it represents an obvious card advantage.


And for the record: don't side tormods against Vengevine.

[Mr. Safety]

Why not Tormod's Crypt against Vengevine? I like the Gleeful Sabotage explanation, I really like the teck.

I TOTALLY spaced on Pithing Needle, one of the best weapons for ANY deck in legacy. Man, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of that one.

I still like the Meekstone teck for decks like Vengevine, New Horizons, and to a smaller extent Zoo.

[Gui]

Why not Tormod's Crypt against Vengevine? I like the Gleeful Sabotage explanation, I really like the teck.

I TOTALLY spaced on Pithing Needle, one of the best weapons for ANY deck in legacy. Man, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of that one.

I still like the Meekstone teck for decks like Vengevine, New Horizons, and to a smaller extent Zoo.

Tormod's are easy to work around. If they are playing Iona, they will bring this. If not, they can either bring one vengevine at a time, or bring them 2 by 2. Or bring something to break Tormod's. Destroying/Disabling Survival is way more effective against them.

Meekstone is, somehow, something I think I'm up to test as SB when I get the chance... it can be useful against other decks (I'm mostly thinking about Zoo, tbh).

[Mr. Safety]

I'm really thinking hard about this Meekstone idea, and there are a couple of REALLY BIG roadblocks to it's effectiveness:

1) Zoo (and some Rock lists) use Qasali Pridemage x4 maindeck. Some Rock lists sideboard it in some number. G/W aggro, while a fringe tier 2 deck, would most certainly have it x4 in the maindeck. Even New Horizons has shown Pridemage in some number. With Berserk's lack of removal, we're really on the downside of that matchup.

2) Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, packs artifact hate in the board. Meekstone would be their only target (unless you also sideboard in Pithing Needle) so you're pretty much guaranteed a blank when you spend the 1 mana on it.

Essentially, if I'm going to playtest Meekstone, I'm going to playtest it right alongside Pithing Needle. My gut feeling is that they would work well together, but Meekstone alone wouldn't really work well. Needle is great tech regardless, giving you a turn or more to get the job done, but Meekstone can be destroyed at instant speed, sometimes the same turn it comes out, making it have NO effect on the game.

[Masamune]

Hm...nice observation...IMO I think Meekstone isn't the right answer... Sabotage and Needle is better, but just delay a little... :(
Does anyone have a better suggestion?

[paeng4983]

Hm...nice observation...IMO I think Meekstone isn't the right answer... Sabotage and Needle is better, but just delay a little... :(
Does anyone have a better suggestion?

FOG?
i think i am the only berserk stumpy user that is an avid fan of having a couple fog in the SB. :)
it works well with me.

[Gui]

We should either look for a tech that is really strong, or tweak our maindeck against them. Siding more than 4 non-creature non-pump (non-land) effects cause our deck to malfunction due to lack of fuel. If you are already siding 8, and want to add more 4 meekstone, prepare to play your deck as a control deck. xD

[Mr. Safety]

We should either look for a tech that is really strong, or tweak our maindeck against them. Siding more than 4 non-creature non-pump (non-land) effects cause our deck to malfunction due to lack of fuel. If you are already siding 8, and want to add more 4 meekstone, prepare to play your deck as a control deck. xD

Yeah, a really BAD control deck, hahaha.

Now let me open up another line of discussion for the sideboard, as these cards have been on my mind:

Hidden Gibbons
Eyes of the Wisent

Thoughts about these?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Eyes of the Wisent is only good against control, IMO... and we really don't need anything against control/counters except Shusher.

Hidden Gibbons is a funny card... I liked to play 2 in the main, 2 years ago. It's not only good against counters. It also has this tricks, where the opponent is thinking "If I Bolt / StoP his creature, he gets a 4/4" Don't know if its needed in the actual meta, though.


well... nevertheless

I readed the whole thread again, and wanted to gather some Informations... I also test this deck a bit, and the more I play it, the more I think Trollshroud is the way to go to killl your opponent effective. I haven't posted a decklist in a long time, but I was always playing 4 VoV, and it saved my ass countless times. This mad me think of Otters testings in the past, and to increase my land count [I usually play 15] to 17 Lands, to support Troll Ascetics. Troll can stall in games where we miss 1 pumpspell to kill the opponent for example, and we should have enough Trollshroud, to make a kill nearly unstopable for the opponents. Troll can also survive Pyroclasms/Firespouts/etc. if you predict it. I think he is the only cc3 Creature that has the potential to be played in Berserk Stompy.

Let's say something like this for example:

Maindeck:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage

20 Creatures, 20 Pumpspells, 16!!!! Trollshroud possibilities, and still 3 slots open, what do you think?

[Gui]

Eyes of the Wisent is only good against control, IMO... and we really don't need anything against control/counters except Shusher.

Hidden Gibbons is a funny card... I liked to play 2 in the main, 2 years ago. It's not only good against counters. It also has this tricks, where the opponent is thinking "If I Bolt / StoP his creature, he gets a 4/4" Don't know if its needed in the actual meta, though.


well... nevertheless

I readed the whole thread again, and wanted to gather some Informations... I also test this deck a bit, and the more I play it, the more I think Trollshroud is the way to go to killl your opponent effective. I haven't posted a decklist in a long time, but I was always playing 4 VoV, and it saved my ass countless times. This mad me think of Otters testings in the past, and to increase my land count [I usually play 15] to 17 Lands, to support Troll Ascetics. Troll can stall in games where we miss 1 pumpspell to kill the opponent for example, and we should have enough Trollshroud, to make a kill nearly unstopable for the opponents. Troll can also survive Pyroclasms/Firespouts/etc. if you predict it. I think he is the only cc3 Creature that has the potential to be played in Berserk Stompy.

Let's say something like this for example:

Maindeck:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage

20 Creatures, 20 Pumpspells, 16!!!! Trollshroud possibilities, and still 3 slots open, what do you think?

Hmmmm... If I recall correctly, Otter's lists had accelerators for Troll, maybe you should add either Noble or ESGs? With 17 Forests, you'll be able to drop Troll by turn 3 ~60% of the time

[Mr. Safety]

Why the Snow-Covered Forests?

I agree with Gui...I would get an accelerator in here.

I would do this:

-1 Troll Ascetic

+4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sure, Troll Ascetic is worth playing, but I wouldn't play more than 3. I would actually drop the 3rd for another land (18 + ESG will make for explosive starts, and get kicked VoV's online earlier)

[Gui]

In topic, I agree with Mr. Safety, but I'd test Noble instead of Elvish SG first.
Also, from my tests, I believe 20 to be the least amount of pumps I'd use, and would try very hard to use at least 22, specially if already using VoVs, which are slow and hard to combo. Since there are better chances of having a Trollshrouded guy now, I'd probably cut a VoV for a Seal.

On a different topic, I've been testing Wastelands. Not as maindeck, since I believe we need the s for proper function and didn't want to cut other resources for extra lands, but bringing them against any deck that could have it's manabase Jeopardized by it, or decks carrying problematic lands. It is strong, but there is some controversy on whether it should be sideboard material or not. Also on its favor, with them in sideboard, we could support pricey options more easily, like Seeds of Innocences or Krosan Grips, and of course, Troll.

[Mr. Safety]

I like Wasteland in the sideboard...it's basically a 0-cost land destruction spell. You're keeping them off their mana, to a minor extent, so you can get your game on. It seems like it's 'going over to the Dark Side' but it makes sense, probably more sense than something like Meekstone which we've been debating. Meekstone has a potential effect on the game state, Wasteland has a definate effect, as soon as it hits. And if you look at it as essentially a 0-cost LD spell, then you side it in for other spells...therefore actually sidboarding in a BETTER chance of playing higher-cost cards like Grip, Seeds, and actually making Troll Ascetic BETTER. (I'm essentially just re-stating what Gui just said...it's about a METRIC TON of logical information.)

If you play 17-18 lands in the maindeck augmented with 4 Nobles/ESG's, that means you are essentially siding in the potential for 26 mana sources. That opens up A LOT OF OPTIONS. What would your opponent do if you were playing a fast aggro/combo deck...and then switched gears to playing mid-range aggro? Holy crap, that sounds good. This kind of stuff gets available:

Kitchen Finks (holy crap this sounds good, Invigorate + Berserk for 14 damage...and then gain 2 life and get him back. Resistent to non-exile removal also)

Imperious Perfect (along with Vexing Shusher, this could create some mid-range board advantage. Iffy though...)

Tower Above (I've been on the recieving side of this thing...it's tough. It was in standard about 2 years ago though. Still, it's removal when green typically has none. Playing this kind of mid-range card can increase your odds of surviving against a control deck that acually lands their finisher in time to count)

Drove of Elves (another troll-shroud dude)

Kodama of the North Tree (maybe a little too mana intensive at 5)

Garruk Wildspeaker (this guy can be back-breaking in the right matchups)

I'm thinking mostly of a deck that used to get run a lot (Good Stuff) for ideas. Thoughts?

[Gui]

There are are a lot of options when considering a higher mana count... Well, I didn't test Wastelands along with Troll yet, just the standard list. But I caught your point. It could be possible to turn the deck into something like what was done to "Zoo" turning it into "Big Zoo", or Midrange Zoo. Well, that's something to consider, although I belive most should be kept as sideboard options, some techs could be worth trying MD.

I'm still somehow skeptic about Troll Ascetic's inclusion, but a really good player is suggesting that to me, so that I'll have to try it someday ^^

By the way, not trying to be rude or anything, but using [cards ] tag helps when pointing these unknow cards xD

[Mr. Safety]

Sorry! Not sure how to link on this site. I'd be happy to do it if I knew how. Searching site now for an answer.

EDIT:

Here we go, now we're in business!


Kitchen Finks
Imperious Perfect
Tower Above
Drove of Elves
Kodama of the North Tree
Garruk Wildspeaker

[boneclub24]

Hi, avid fan of Stompy here ^^

Just wondering if you have tested/wanted to test any of the following:
Skyshroud Elite
Garruk's Companion
Quirion Ranger
Winter Orb
Rancor

Quirion Ranger + A mana dork can be incredible at getting you ahead, and both are good at getting you ahead while Winter Orb is out.

I haven't used Stompy in competitive legacy, but seeing this discussion makes me want to switch from my Faerie deck ^^

[Mr. Safety]

Hi, avid fan of Stompy here ^^

Just wondering if you have tested/wanted to test any of the following:
Skyshroud Elite
Garruk's Companion
Quirion Ranger
Winter Orb
Rancor

Quirion Ranger + A mana dork can be incredible at getting you ahead, and both are good at getting you ahead while Winter Orb is out.

I haven't used Stompy in competitive legacy, but seeing this discussion makes me want to switch from my Faerie deck ^^

It's pretty much a given that 4 of your pump spells should be Rancor. Definate auto 4-of in my opinion.

Winter Orb is a card I've playtested to a small extent, but it didn't do what I wanted it to do in MOST cases. Think about how many legacy decks can function adequately on 1 land for 2-3 turns, and you'll have your answer to that one. It really isn't worth the slots. Vexing Shusher is a better sideboard option.

Quirion Ranger and mana dorks are, quite frankly, wasted slots. The deck needs to land an evasive threat (troll shroud is our favorite option with Silhana Ledgewalker and Slippery Bogle) and then pump the hell out of it for massive damage. If you're going to use mana acceleration, your only real options are Elvish Spirit Guide or Noble Hierarch. Noble brings exalted, ESG is free.

Skyshroud Elite isn't a bad option at all. It all depends on how many creatures you feel comfortable with. It should be a given that you have Slippery Bogle, Silhana Ledgewalker, and Kavu Predator. Those are key to making the deck function, Kavu Predator for the Invigorate free-play shenanigans.

Garruk's Companion is just not good enough. Think about what you have available at 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Vines of Vastwood. Vines is included in most lists (for good reason) as it can be a great turn 2 play following a turn 1 creature. Threshold isn't hard to hit for this deck allowing Werebear to hit for 4, and he can add mana until then. Easily better than Garruk's Companion. Tarmogoyf is Tarmogoyf...easily the best 2-drop creature (in a vaccuum) in the whole game. Again, the only reason for Kavu Predator over Goyf in Berserk Stompy is for free Invigorates making the guy HUGE. You can attack with KP, toss in Invigorate for free, turning him into a 9/9 trampler on the spot. If you have an open land (which you should) then you play Berserk to hit for 18. It doesn't happen every game, but enough times that it makes your opponent cry. It's one of those situations where you say 'oops, I guess I won'.