[Deck] Dredge

[Zirath]

So its extirpate without the single black cost and can be countered? Still not that scary. If people start bringing in this as their only GY hate rather than Relic/Crypt/Leyline, then I'd be Ok with that.

It does seem solid against High Tide, but not having split second makes it a bit awkward, Its a balance between being 'free' and being uncounterable (apart from a Counterbalance).

The ability for decks like Merfolk and Goblins to remove Ichorid freely is pretty powerful since Ichorid singlehandedly wins both those match ups with Bridge. I think its worse than I think and better than you think. Mostly, it will require playing around it a little more since it behaves like Ravenous Trap.

As far as it not being countered, that doesn't mean much to us since we have no permission. We can Therapy it, sure. But most decks run 3-4 different cards for graveyard hate so its harder to play around. Its quite easy for a number of decks that run Brainstorm or similar cards to dig for a single of this to hamper us. I think its slightly more dangerous than you give it credit.

[Flan R-E]

I'm anticipating something good for dredge will be printed relatively soon, either in NPH or in Innistrad block somewhere. I mean, there's plenty of hate floating around, so more isn't really necessary. We got Bloodghast around the time Ravenous Trap came out, as well as Sphinx of Lost Truths (this one is not so big mechanically, but it's much easier to get ahold of than Cephalid Sage, being new and all). With the love black aggro has been getting in recent sets, I wouldn't be suprised if some more graveyard based cards were printed for us Dredge players to utilize.

On another note, a lot of players I know like Dredge being around, they say it's good for the format (I dont know why they say this). Does anybody know how the RnD people feel about Dredge? because if they like it they probably wouldn't want to hate us out of our "contender" status.

any thoughts?

[Zirath]

No idea. RnD hate combo but Dredge isn't combo. They have commented that they feel Dredge plays in a way that the game is not meant to but its not as if Dredge warps the format. Its no more dangerous than Goblins, who still have Lackey, or Show and Tell, who can play turn 1 Emrakul potentially.

Based on the picture, everyone thinks the setting suggests a graveyard themed set, which would be great, but not really that likely. Its all speculation. Wizards seems to avoid printing cards that work well from the graveyard. Apparently that is too scary.

[overpowered]

On another note, a lot of players I know like Dredge being around, they say it's good for the format (I dont know why they say this).

I think the main reason that dredge is "good" for the format is because it's a narrow strategy that requires utilizing a much ignored, yet integral part of the game. What other decks win from the graveyard? There are several but none that truly encapsulate the flavor of magic. They all involve just reanimating some stupid big creature...

It forces players to interact with a part of the game that they usually don't and it requires knowledge of how the deck works, thereby culling those with lack of format practice. I believe dredge is one of the healthiest and most competitive decks in legacy. It's good for the format and it's good for Magic in general. Though I must say, I don't think it needs MORE cards... :P

[I am the brainwasher]

I am also not convinced that there will be something printed except huge creatures that cost a billion mana and a have a crazy etb-trigger/ability. Other cards that would fit into the maindeck arent needed IMO, besides printing better discard/drawoutlets which is kinda unreal.
I would be pleased to see some anti-graveyard-hate instead of printing always new annoying crap that actually destroys them. I mean whats the point of that? Not every set needs desperatly a anti-grave card and SOM also featured Nihil Spellbomb, so whats the point of that? Just saying. I really see no sense in that and they would do a whole better job printing something that hoses Combo-decks. But I dont blame Wizards for that, thats maybe the smallest mistake they are repeating all-day-long^^.

In general: I dont think that its that bad. I will play definetly more likeley against extirpate than against Relic's thats for sure. I dont think that it will see that much play. The deck where I see the card in is definetly CAN-Thresh because it can removes KotR and Loam where Crypt wasnt THE answer, but idk if it makes the MU worse or better. Thoughts?

[Izor]

Methinks that nothing will change for us with the new printing of that Extirpate thing. We already have tons of grave hate and this will only join the mass, but it will probably not outclass the rest.

As of what cards I could imagine that would make Dredge better:

Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished.

And maybe a DR Target that's not 'win more', but pure 'Win', but I guess Wizards will be intelligent enough not to print something like a Black Ancestor's Chosen that makes the foe lose life xP

The rest of the deck is really too tight.

[I am the brainwasher]

"Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished."

Yep, you got it. This is definetly true, hasnt got that on my radar for the moment. Also agreed that they will be at least a bit careful on the abilities of creatures that could be cheated into play from the yard.

[Joe_C]

I would like more discard outlets like tribe or putrid imp(where the discard cost is free) Or a reprint of careful study with a different name. Something that dredges for 10 would be pretty amazing

[Sims]

"Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished."

Yep, you got it. This is definetly true, hasnt got that on my radar for the moment. Also agreed that they will be at least a bit careful on the abilities of creatures that could be cheated into play from the yard.

As great as a new rainbow land that is better than Tarnished would be, I have to admit I love the feeling of dropping Tarnished Citadel and bolting myself... seeing a smug look on my opponents face cause i just bolted myself... and then rolling them anyways.

[Kaslan]

hey guys,

this week I went to a small local tournament at my local store and I desided to dust off my old dredge deck. I 4-0 ed the tournament and got 1st place.

My list :

4 X [NARCOMOEBA]
4 x [putrid imp]
4 x [hapless researcher]
3 x [ichorid]
4 x [golgari grave-troll]
2 x [golgari thug]
4 x [stinkweed imp]

4 x [polluted delta]
4 x [cephalid coliseum]
2 x [underground sea]
4 x [darkslick shores]
1 x [island]

4 x [caball therapy]
2 x [dread return]
4 x [careful study]
4 x [breakthrough]
4 x [bridge from below]
2 x [brainstorm] ( playing around with Entomb as well, but it's nice to be able to case Brainstorm with any of my lands )

SB
4 x [force of will]
1 x [ancestor's chosen]
1 x [aura Thief] ( enchantress player )
1 x [massacre wurm] ( elf player )
4 x [leyline of the void]
4 x [chain of vapor]

I played VS Ad Nauseam Storm( game 2 he went all in on turn 2 but Force of will killed him), Canadian Threshold (he had the Relic of Progenitus turn one on game 1 and 2), burn and some sort of combo deck .

I would have lost vs burn if I was playing the rainbow lands. this version of the deck is very stable and consistent.

[I am the brainwasher]

I am tinkering around with a pretty similar build with a friend of mine for quite a time. At the first glance it seems pretty bad compared to the more or less most consistent list with rainbow lands, but it isnt that bad if you play with it. I experienced that a more stable manabase allows to play this deck in a very different style, mostly a very, very slow dredge with casting a lot Thugs and Stinks hard.
I tested an UB-Version really a lot and came to the conclusion that some MU's are kinda(!!!) improved and others have gone horrible due to the lack of colored sb-slots and the lack of Tirerless Tribe.
As much as I like LED-less Dredge with Rainbowlands, I couldnt blame anyone for playing just UB to be honest. Its not a bad deck at all. It plays out very different which can be a huge (dis)advantage, the biggest problem I see is the lack of Ancient Grudge. If someones interested, heres the list I worked out over a couple of months:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Putrid Imp
2 Hapless Researcher
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Retunr
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast

SB:
4 Thoughtseize/Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle/Null Rod
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Terastodon

I am not completely sure about the sb, I am pretty happy with the rest of the deck.

To make things clear, I dont think that this is superior to other Dredge decks, especially with Rainbow Lands and a lot of MU's could go just wrong with just playing UB but I think its still a pretty good deck where you are able to win a whole lot of games with. Sureley I'll stick to the 5 color list but I wouldnt be too surprised that its possible to win tourneys with such a list.
Nice finish, even if such a small tourney isnt that representative to me.

[Kaslan]

it's true that the U-B dredge is slower but I don't see in what match up it's worse than 5c dredge. I think it has a better MU against merfolk, burn, and goblin's

I'm even playing around the Idea of putting personal tutor in the place of brainstorm ( or entomb ). It gets you any spell that you need to go off or to disrupt your opponent and it's Blue :)

what do you guys think of personal tutor in this deck ?

[CabalTherapy]

it's true that the U-B dredge is slower but I don't see in what match up it's worse than 5c dredge. I think it has a better MU against merfolk, burn, and goblin's

I'm even playing around the Idea of putting personal tutor in the place of brainstorm ( or entomb ). It gets you any spell that you need to go off or to disrupt your opponent and it's Blue :)

what do you guys think of personal tutor in this deck ?

I really don't think that discussing such "lists" is needed.
You can't cast Tireless Tribe (the best permanent discard outlet), you can't use Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge (the best SB cards).
There is no other cards that are bashing gravehate like Claim/Grudge.

I think, that we should stay at the LED-less, rainbowland-based Dredge.

[Kaslan]

I really don't think that discussing such "lists" is needed.
You can't cast Tireless Tribe (the best permanent discard outlet), you can't use Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge (the best SB cards).
There is no other cards that are bashing gravehate like Claim/Grudge.

I think, that we should stay at the LED-less, rainbowland-based Dredge.

Isn't this forum all about discussing and playing around with new ideas ?

Maybe my list is not better than rainbow dredge, maybe it is... I posted in this forum so that ppl can give me there point of view on my list. I respect your views on B-U dredge but I don't think that you have any right to tell me not to discuss my dredge list.

[Izor]

It's really hard to say where UB lists are better or worse than Rainbow ones. For example, the argument that Burn becomes easier due to the lack of Tarnished might just be nullified by the speed boost of the Rainbow list, which kills one turn earlier in many cases.

All in all, The non-B and non-U spells are way too important for me to even consider a UB mana base.

[Zirath]

Isn't this forum all about discussing and playing around with new ideas ?

Maybe my list is not better than rainbow dredge, maybe it is... I posted in this forum so that ppl can give me there point of view on my list. I respect your views on B-U dredge but I don't think that you have any right to tell me not to discuss my dredge list.

Why aren't you playing Darkslick Shores? Lack of Brainstorm makes fetches worthless, so you should be playing Darkslick Shores so you don't mess up your Merfolk match up by getting Islandwalked.

[(nameless one)]

I run the typical manabase (4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Colisseum, 3 Tarnished Citadel). I have been thinking of running Darkslick Shore in the Citadel spot.

I would still run the typical list (looks almost identical as Max Mccall's list from that article). Has anyone tried or tested the manabase mentioned above?

My main concern is aggro and burn decks.

[Kaslan]

Why aren't you playing Darkslick Shores? Lack of Brainstorm makes fetches worthless, so you should be playing Darkslick Shores so you don't mess up your Merfolk match up by getting Islandwalked.

I do play Darkslick shores. It's true that with my manabase give's Morfolk the opportunity to attack me with island walk but on the other hand I play 1 basic Island and that protects me from wastelands and makes my Cephalid Coliseum more powerful on turn 2.

[Gui]

I don't think cutting the most sided sideboard option due to manabase issues is worth, just to make aggro matchup somehow better. If you really need further consistancy that much, against aggro decks, run 2 SB Ancestor's to find him faster, since he's pretty much gg against Zoo or Burn. I dislike the idea of playing a version with less than 4x Ancient Grudge SB.

[Zirath]

I do play Darkslick shores. It's true that with my manabase give's Morfolk the opportunity to attack me with island walk but on the other hand I play 1 basic Island and that protects me from wastelands and makes my Cephalid Coliseum more powerful on turn 2.

Sorry, I was looking at the list right below yours. That guy should be playing Darkslick. My bad.