[Deck] Dredge

[chags]

Richard feldman just wrote a primer for scg premium with a very interesting build, any thoughts?

[Sims]

I have to wait for it to go regular, soo... whats that 3 months or 6?

[chags]

Ah, are we allowed to repost content from premium articles? I'm gonna start testing a new list (originating from Feldman and dubbed Fearless Dredge) that looks like this:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Winds of Change

The main idea is this: playing reactive sideboard cards is bad, it dilutes your hands, makes you make bad mulligan/keep decisions, and only makes it so you are playing "fair" magic. Instead this deck looks to recognize when it is intelligent to go beatdown and when it is intelligent to go combo and which plan is better against forms of expected hate. It then aims to sideboard into making the chosen plan stronger. For example against combo ichorid is far too slow so siding him out and siding in Winds of Change as breakthrough 5-7 makes the match up better since you want to combo fast. DR targets MD are typically win more, consistency is king. Elesh is great in the mirror, aggro decks, and elves combo. Leyline is a nodd to this deck getting more popular. Blightsteel is for painter's servant/other mill strategies...only required for certain metas.

[4eak]

My maindeck is virtually identical, -1 Thug +1 Dark Blast. That card has been pretty awesome in a wide variety of circumstances. Of course, I like that list a lot.

The sideboard I disagree with. Here is what I use:

SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

It is a giant mistake not to run Ancient Grudges -- it is a waste, even when you are carefully choosing not to overextend, to have to force crypt/relic and then have to rinse and repeat. Grudge very often lets you answer GY hate without having to go that far. Grudge doesn't take a lot of slots, and it does a lot of work. It isn't just for Artifact GY hate though, I've hit many gamewinning Vials and Jittes.

I've also stopped running Leyline for two reasons. First, I finally have a boarding plan that does consistently well against Leyline (and on a sidenote, Wheel as well). +4 Claim +3 Ray; -4 Breakthrough, -2 DR, -1 Darkblast; Obviously, it takes a lot of space, but it is worth it, as it consistently enables you to open/mulligan to a hand with an answer. After popping Leyline, you'll dredge the Rays and always have an answer up for it. And, yes, I think it is worth having a good answer to enchantment GY hate, bringing me to my second point. If Leyline is actually worth using in Dredge because we are that worried about the mirror match (and, admittedly, rare oddities like Lands, which can be handled in other ways), then the rest of the field is going to gear up on GY hate as well -- then it becomes even more important that we devote space to answering GY hate.

I appreciate the winds. For now, with my limited sideboard space, I rely upon DR targets to speed up the deck or answer something specific.



peace,
4eak

[Gui]

No, we are not allowed to copy-paste things from premium articles, although you can discuss them. Although, nothing you posted is big news. The list has beeing played since forever, with only minimal changes.

Firestorm is obviously good, but I dunno if necessary, for it has almost the same speed as DDD.


@4eak
I do that Darkblast instead of Thug thing too, for it is really worth. What do you think about rising the dredgers number to 13, whith the 4th Thug, making DDD chances better (for the possible show of MM)?
(My maindeck has been EXACTLY the same as yours for a while, already)


Edit: I'm stupid, Winds is clealy better than Brainstorm. ><

[Flan R-E]

that sideboard has no outs to leyline of the void.

I imagine this is for more of a Combo Meta, where leyline is not seen?

I can get behind the sideboard plan pretty well except for not having outs to leyline.

(by the way. Starcity articles go regular after 1 month)

[juzamjedi]

What do you people think about Chancellor of the Annex?

The Daze effect in your opening hand is the appealing part. It's certainly no Iona once it's reanimated, but it allows us to have a DR slot that isn't dead in your opening hand.

[Sunsatzu]

what does this site have anything to do with starcitygames?

[chags]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

[Gui]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

I can agree with the idea, but there's no non-reactive answer to Leyline, nor there is for a resolved planar void on turn 1. You can win against Tormod's by getting "too much stuff" into grave and then they have to sacrifice it, but if the opposing deck is fast enough, this "non-reactive" answer to tormod's will give them enough time to kill us. And Elesh won't help much if they slow us down, because you'll have to dredge for it, which won't be acomplished if tormods/leyline hit the board before you dredge, and they can sacrifice Tormod's in response to DR too, if they didn't try to slow you down.

I can imagine they side Winds against aggro decks, trying to race them. Well,if they land Tormod's by first turn, Winds won't help much. Specially if aggro-deck-players decide to use Mental Misstep maindeck/postboard, they will be slowing us down a lot.

I think that the answer they gave to combo decks in Winds of Change (#taaaaaake me, to the legend of the moment...#) is better than siding DR targets, but I still think the answer to hate is needed, specially with so many good results posted by the deck.

I'll definitely try to fit winds in my sideboard,

[CabalTherapy]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

If Feldmen or McCall or whoever would say that jumping from bridges is cool...would you jump too?
These are just name (I don't know them xD.) and they aren't god.
A lot of articles from SCG or other sites are pretty crappy.

[Felidae]

The ideology behind the SB sounds rather dull, as you can't pretend to be in G1 again after they have sided in their hate. It is not about playing "fair" or playing Magic at all, it's about the ability to take away your opponents ability to decide if it is worth to activate his hate or not.
As 4eak said you can easily side in 4 Grudges and still kill on turn 3, because the MD is consinstat enough.

I'm currently running the Darblast as well, killing your own Ichorid befor they sword them as well as a way to deal with Peacekeeper are enough reasons for me to rum them.

Winds of Change and the idea to side them in against Combat sounds pretty good, even if I'd run something like Iona or Choosen in the Side, so we can actually use our tempo advantage (blowing them out with multiple well aimed Therapys would be the allternativ plan).

[chags]

Can't say I'm surprised with the responses, sourcers are notorious for bashing new ideas. I'm not running this in a tournament without testing but I think it is worth testing. Last time someone wrote a prime it was McCall over a year ago and a lot of what he was doing was very different then most dredge players but it worked, and worked well. To get a full idea of how the deck works you would have to have a starcity premium account. I'll let those who are interested know how my testing goes.

[Sims]

I'll probably throw the sideboard and test it out, it's worth a shot. The MD is mine -1 thug +1 darkblast, so I know the maindeck is solid. I Top 8'd a GPT this past weekend with the deck and lost to a mistake on my part g1 of t8 and just got blown out by mull to a poor hand that got blown out by a sandbagged crypt. Thems the breaks.

I'll see if I can borrow a friends premium to look at that article when I get home from work, but the concept behind the sideboard is worth testing. I really like winds of change.

[Gui]

Can't say I'm surprised with the responses, sourcers are notorious for bashing new ideas. I'm not running this in a tournament without testing but I think it is worth testing. Last time someone wrote a prime it was McCall over a year ago and a lot of what he was doing was very different then most dredge players but it worked, and worked well. To get a full idea of how the deck works you would have to have a starcity premium account as I am not going to repeat the primer for people who are too close minded for new ideas. I'll let those who are interested know how my testing goes.

Ok, sorry if I sounded like bashing something, that was certainly not the intention. I was trying to argument against these decisions, looking forward the counter-argumentation, possibly proving me wrong. I don't know about you, but my time is short, and I tend to filter what I think is most worth of testing. I'm really into testing Winds of Change (and the song comes back to stick in mind again... >< ), and Elesh Norn is no huge news to us as well. I just don't get how this sideboard config will beat Leyline/Tormod's/Relic, which are waaay too present in my meta sideboards.

The maindeck is solid, and a lot of people "bashing" just uses the same configuration.

[chags]

The point of the deck being designed this way (SB included) is for consistency in getting a troll out fast. "A win is a win regardless how ugly." Against cards like crypt or relic, first turn therapying for them is a solid plan, also these cards aren't scary as they are board sweepers. Sandbagging a dredger is not a difficult task to do, we all do it when we play aggro against wrath effects. Also its important to recognize its not always correct to dredge every turn, draw if you have dudes on board and crypt is a threat. If you can help it don't put dread returns and ichorids from your hand into your gy unless you win that turn.

Against leyline, jailer, extirpate, extraction, etc. the plan is as follows: Siding chain of vapor as an answer to leyline is no good, game 2 you basically can't ever do it and game 3 you have to draw it as well as an acceptable dredge hand and they have to draw leyline, essentially too much has to go right. Play out some dudes and use your firestorms to hit them for some damage, lets be honest an on the board leyline is almost always gg even with chain hands. Wheel of sun and moon you just have to try to therapy away or play as you would with leyline. Extraction and Extirpate are as we know already bad weapons for fighting this deck due to its redundancy (which is weakened when you side out dredgers and what not for chain of vapors or unmasks). Yixlid Jailer, Teeg, Grunt, and other creatures are all answered by firestorm.

I agree that it feels strange to not be able to answer leyline but to be honest our "answer" for leyline was a stretch to begin with, as are all of our answers to gy hate. We have to have good dredge hands + at least 1 gy hate answer and generally by trying to draw into them or mulligan to them we slow our plan down so much they can just draw into another one. Instead why not forgo all that and play a game of chance? Aren't you already by playing dredge? Why not just hold back a dredger and a draw spell, or wait to blow your coliseum until their eot so that crypt they were holding is less useful? I think the strategy is worth testing, I'm not saying this is the new face of dredge, though others seem to think it is. If anyone else intends on testing it feel free to pm me and we can discuss results.

Disclaimer: Many of these thoughts do not originate from me, I take no credit for conceptualizing any of this strategy, rather I am simply adopting and discussing it.

[Izor]

I think we do understand the reasoning behind that kind of sideboard. It just will not work.

So let's have a closer look. We give up any chance of winning through Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Wheel of Sun and Moon and multiple Crypts/Relics/Spellbombs. That's already anough reasons to drop the idea of such a sideboard already, but let's move on.

So the question is: What advantages is it going to have?

Firestorms are good cards and they're already played quite a lot. Usual sbs have space for them, so there's nothing to talk about.

Elesh Norn: Ever heard of the term 'win more'? What do you board it in against? Gobbos? Merfolks? I personally never had any problems crishing them with my main board alone and with Firestorms it's already an unfair battle.

Leyline: Still debatable. Usually one only has space for ether Firestorm or Leyline, he has room for both, Fine.

AoD: Fair enough. Some permanent destroyer is necessary for all Dredge sbs.

Ichorid: I've never needed the 4th one at all, so no option for me.

Blightsteel Colossus: If your metagame is like 90% PainterStone, it's fine. Otherwise, it's unnecessary. Absolutely unnecessary. I mean, there is no other mill deck in the format. High Tide draws you out.

Winds of Change: This is where it gets funny. The idea of Breakthroughs 5-7 is reasonable, but people, are you even serious. That card is like 10 times worse than BT. But well, if you really want your opponent to find his Force or Misstep, go run it.

No, seriously. The Dredge list is already tight. If you want to board something against storm combo I wouldn't even have room for BT 5-7. I take out all 3 Ichorids for sure. And in comes one Ancestor's Chosen and one Iona. The third thing could now be the 5th BT, but I'm also happy with the Terastodon.

EDIT: His main deck is bonkers though. I'm also running it with +1 Darkblast -1 Thug. Currently I also got one Iona main, but that's just a feeling I had...

[Swing4Five]

I think there are two main questions here:

How often do you actually face an opening Leyline in both postboard games of a match?

How often do you win against an opening Leyline with your current sideboard?
______________________________________________________________________

If the answer to both of those questions is "Hardly ever" then why devote 7 valuable slots to cards that don't swing the match around... in a situation that rarely happens?

If the answer to both of those questions is "All the damn time", then you need to examine if it's the Enchantment counter-hate cards are swinging the matchup around. If they are, then keep on crushing with them. If not, what's the point?

If you do see opening Leylines all the time, and hardly ever beat them, regardless of how your board is constructed. The gigs up. Time for a new deck bro. At least until the hate dies down...

Lastly if you've hardly ever seeing Leylines, and managing to beat them when you do, you have to again examine if it is in fact the counter-hate doing the heavy lifting. Then you have to weigh the likely-hood of facing that hate against other uses for those slots.

[chags]

I think there are two main questions here:

How often do you actually face an opening Leyline in both postboard games of a match?

How often do you win against an opening Leyline with your current sideboard?
______________________________________________________________________

If the answer to both of those questions is "Hardly ever" then why devote 7 valuable slots to cards that don't swing the match around... in a situation that rarely happens?

If the answer to both of those questions is "All the damn time", then you need to examine if it's the Enchantment counter-hate cards are swinging the matchup around. If they are, then keep on crushing with them. If not, what's the point?

If you do see opening Leylines all the time, and hardly ever beat them, regardless of how your board is constructed. The gigs up. Time for a new deck bro. At least until the hate dies down...

Lastly if you've hardly ever seeing Leylines, and managing to beat them when you do, you have to again examine if it is in fact the counter-hate doing the heavy lifting. Then you have to weigh the likely-hood of facing that hate against other uses for those slots.

+1
Yes I am cold to leyline of the void but I cannot remember the last time I saw a leyline in play. Almost no one plays it and I'd rather not use the SB slots on it, if it got really popular then reactive cards become necessary. The list I presented is perfectly capable of winning through crypt, relic, jailer, Teeg, bog, spellbomb, trap, extirpate, extraction...the only thing it loses to is leyline and wheel of sun and moon which are rarely played. And any version of deck answer or no answer loses to multiples of any of the listed hate so lets not bother with that argument.

Also obviously blightsteel is there because the deck designer's meta is heavy painter, any moron can cut that card and fill it with a 1 of target like Iona or anything of the like if the meta is not representing painter which is why I didn't bother addressing it in my other posts.

[TheSleeper]

This whole 'reactive vs proactive' SB thing depends on your meta IMO. In our local store, the last 3 months there has only been a total of 2 decks running Leyline of the Void. With those kinds of numbers, you can afford flat out ignore it. I personally would keep 3 Grudge in the SB as its useful against a number of things (someone mentioned Chalice/Jitte earlier). There is no empirical right and wrong SB plan, just will give you the best chance at winning where you play.