I think the vast majority of affinity builds these days are cutting Ravager. It's been my experience in games, and it's the impression I've gotten looking at high-placing decklists. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a problem if he ultimates very quickly and we can't punch through their free creatures, but we should usually be able to whack him for some damage, which means they might need to have a very good hand to beat us (sans Ravager). Something along the lines of evasive guy + Cranial Plating + Tezzeret may be necessary to have a good shot at winning.Originally Posted by Izor
If they do cut Ravager, we get zombie tokens and the matchup becomes orders of magnitude easier.
Both Affinity and Elves are generally bad match ups, I'd say Affinity is impossible to overcome between game 1 and game 2 + hate without Lion's Eye Diamond racing. Unfortunately Dredge does have bad match ups game 1 vs. anything that's aggro-combo, Storm or Reanimator and Reanimator is the only match up you can really shore up with your SB.
I absolutely agree that Arcbound Ravager is the man who makes the difference. If they don't run it, our chances are significantly better.
However, lists that run Etched Champion do usually run 4 Ravagers, just because he acts as Plating no 5-8 for Champion to become Progenitus. People had started to cut Ravagers back when they cut Disciple, but nowadays, where every list plays Etched, he's usually in there as well. He's also a nice trick against Remoal as well as Batterskull Tokens and Jitte (sac sth in resp to blocking).
Manaless Ichorid's threat-density is far more involved with grinding out the early game and Dread Return-ing a creature with a significant, game-swinging "come-into-play" effect (like Kelpie or Sphinx) rather than traditional 'Mana' Ichorid variants with a signifiactly higher mulligan percentage and a much less explosive potential than that of its counterpart. Manaless Dredge is notorious for grinding-out games using Ichorid, Nether Shadow, and Street Wraith as a ridiculously fast engine that can put serious pressure on an opponent even without a single Bridge in the graveyard. You can't compare Manaless and Mana Dredge in this match-up; the intricacies are far too important to overlook.
You stated the match-up is "significantly" higher in Affinity's favor, and I'm stating it is untrue. Affinity's opening hands are largely predicated on dumping a large number of inconsequential threats and turning that advantage into something more powerful with the use of cards like Cranial Plating and Tezzeret. Even with these cards, a single attack cannot do nearly the same amount of damage as a single fundamental turn with Manaless Dredge as you have the capability of winning the game in a single turn. And, assuming you can't, you're still forcing an opponent to blow-out his or her threat base and opening themselves up for a devastating counter-strike.
I'm not sure how you're playing this match-up, but the fact is that if an Arcbound Ravager hits the table turns two or three, and you're sitting there with a single Bridge and a few Ichorids, Ravager is either going to suck up all of that player's resources or take some damage - and in a hurry. I'd like to see your 'hard data' that is based on your conclusion the Manaless version's win-percentage is abysmal against Affinity, because frankly it sounds bogus (no offense). Arcbound Ravager does absolutely nothing but sit there and soak up a Bridge or two when you're just going to blow through a very large percentage of your deck the same turn and while your grvaeyard is stacked with Shadows and Ichorids - in conjunction with Narcomoebas and a few Zombie tokens - your hapless opponent will be left to ponder whether they should attack or not (assuming they have a threat still alive from ravager's activation), when you know you will.
It's either you (Affinity player) lose your board turn three or die. It's a pretty fair trade when you consider you can just chump with cards like Narcomoeba or Nether Shadow if you absolutely have to. Manaless Dredge is far better at grinding out wins and there really isn't anything Affinity can do but cast relatively innocuous cards and be forced to either attack and do some damage, or face an unanticipated amount of damage the proceeding turn. I've been sitting here goldfishing dozens of hands against Affinity for the last hour and I'm still trying to figure out where you came to that conclusion.
Manaless Ichorid's threat-density is far more involved with grinding out the early game and Dread Return-ing a creature with a significant, game-swinging "come-into-play" effect (like Kelpie or Sphinx) rather than traditional 'Mana' Ichorid variants with a significantly higher mulligan percentage and a slightly less explosive potential than that of its counterpart due in large part to the high number of involved discard outlets, higher number of Dredgers, and larger recursive threat base. Manaless Dredge is notorious for grinding-out games using Ichorid, Nether Shadow, and Street Wraith as a ridiculously fast engine that can put serious pressure on an opponent even without a single Bridge in the graveyard. You can't compare Manaless and Mana Dredge in this match-up; the intricacies are far too important to correlate. Affinity has actually (and ironically) steered away from its namesake, trading speed for more powerful threats like Master of Etherium, Tezzeret, etc. But these cards come down too slow for them to matter in a deck which should win by turn three.
You stated the match-up is "significantly" higher in Affinity's favor, and I'm stating it is untrue. Affinity's opening hands are largely predicated on dumping a large number of inconsequential threats and turning that advantage into something more powerful with the use of cards like Cranial Plating and Tezzeret. Even with these cards, a single attack cannot do nearly the same amount of damage as a single fundamental turn with Manaless Dredge as you have the capability of winning the game in a single turn. And, assuming you can't, you're still forcing an opponent to blow-out his or her threat base and opening themselves up for a devastating counter-strike.
I'm not sure how you're playing this match-up, but the fact is that if an Arcbound Ravager hits the table turns two or three, and you're sitting there with a single Bridge and a few Ichorids, Ravager is either going to suck up all of that player's resources or take some damage - and in a hurry. I'd like to see your 'hard data' that is based on your conclusion the Manaless version's win-percentage is abysmal against Affinity, because frankly it sounds bogus (no offense). Arcbound Ravager does absolutely nothing but sit there and soak up a Bridge or two when you're just going to blow through a very large percentage of your deck the same turn and while your graveyard is stacked with Shadows and Ichorids - in conjunction with Narcomoeba and a few Zombie tokens - your hapless opponent will be left to ponder whether they should attack or not (assuming they have a threat still alive from Ravager's activation), when you know you will.
It's either you (Affinity player) lose your board turn three or die. It's a pretty fair trade when you consider you can just chump with cards like Narcomoeba or Nether Shadow if you absolutely have to. Manaless Dredge is far better at grinding out wins and there really isn't anything Affinity can do but cast relatively innocuous cards and be forced to either attack and do some damage, or face an unanticipated amount of damage the proceeding turn. I've been sitting here gold-fishing dozens of hands against Affinity for the last hour and I'm still trying to figure out where you came to that conclusion.
Concerning the Affinity matchup- I completely agree with what Hollywood has had to say. I'm just not seeing it as the boogeyman you make it out to be, Izor. The only card in my mind that truly matters game one is Cranial Plating; multiple Ravager activations means that the opponent's armada will be mitigated, Tezz should never ultimate given our forces should greatly outnumber their untapped blockers, and Etched Champion seems much too slow to do any real harm without the aforementioned Plating. Granted, I don't have much physical experience playing against the deck, but in the one match I've played against it in a tournament setting, the only reason my opponent won game two (I took the match 2-1) was because he found two Cranial Plating and hit for close to exactsies the turn before I would have killed him with FKZ.
If you're really having problems with Affinity, though, you could always throw in a Blazing Archon in the side. While I don't think targets like Archon are good for a general metagame like a Grand Prix, I'm a huge fan of meta-specific sideboard cards, and that might do the trick. It's too bad Uktabi Kong isn't a real card and Furnace Dragon has to be worded the way it is.
@thread- Here's a new sideboard I've been testing with a six Bauble, three Nether Shadow, three Phantasmagorian maindeck. I just got my Baubles in the mail, though I still need two more LED to be able to play it in a paper tourney. I'm slowly approaching the eight Bauble list that I feel is the objectively best list (of what I've seen) with the sideboard in consideration, though until I really feel all fifteen board slots will be greatly needed, I'm content with having a few of them be Mishra's Bauble:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Deep Analysis
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
Boarding plan vs. faster decks that aren't expected to be running non-Leyline grave hate (such as Storm decks of all varieties, the mirror, and potentially Elves!, Flashless Hulk, and combo decks that run countermagic such as Reanimator, Solidarity, and Breakfast iterations, though the latter category might need respective plans for each archetype in question):
-3 Phantasmagorian
-3 Nether Shadow
-3 a combination of Cabal Therapy and/or Bridge from Below
-3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
for
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Deep Analysis
2 Mishra's Bauble
I've also been pondering over an LED list similar to the one Final Fortune suggested with a resilience package in the board, though it's still in its early stages. I like it conceptually, since a decklist like that would make better use of the sideboard by allowing for a broader range of playstyle.
Also, does anyone think the first post needs to be updated with up-to-date lists and philosophies, a guide on how to correctly play cantrips, an anti-Relic maneuver compendium, better matchup and boarding details, etc.?
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
Regarding boarding details, what SB cards are you guys typically SBing out and why? I've typically SBed out all of the draw mechanics, Baubles and DR targets, for resiliency but I'm wondering what, exactly, is the most resilient post board vs. aggro-control + hate?
The cantrips seem like the first thing that would naturally come out (the Baubles especially). As you put it once, the list should look as similar to Rausch's as possible, minus Gigapede and Iona. I don't have the resiliency package down pat, so I don't know for sure, but that's what I would try out first and see what works and what's lacking.
Also, here's the proto LED Manaless list I'm working on:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Deep Analysis
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths (or River Kelpie)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Phantasmagorian
1 Flame-kin Zealot
In all honesty, this (or something similar) might be better than Bauble lists (still far, far away from a conclusion on that, though). The numbers are solid for the most part; the only thing that needs to be played around with is the balancing act between Deep Analysis, Nether Shadow, Phantasmagorian, and I suppose Sphinx of Lost Truths and Gitaxian Probe. I suppose you could also try to fit Urza's or Mishra's Bauble(s) in there at the cost of some number of Nether Shadow. Some of the negatives are that you're way more prone to overextend your hand and Bridges, and Relic is more dangerous without Baubles postboard to maneuver around them, but if that's the cost for the deck to become (potentially) a fundamental turn faster and to have way more open slots in the sideboard, then it might just be worth it.
As I was typing this, an intriguing thought popped into my head- what if one were to combine the list above (or something similar) with aj's Dark Depths sideboard? I could easily see Bloodghast in place of Nether Shadow (and, unfortunately, Dakmor Salvage in place of Shambling Shell) speeding up an already fast deck since it can CIP the same turn you'd want to go off, and you'd get all of the benefits of being able to dodge all forms of grave hate. Off to test...
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
I really like your list but as you said ("...balance between...Phantasmagorian") it will need some testing.
My LED build looks very similar to yours but I use 4 Phantas, because they are just too awesome not running them as a playset.
It can be seen as a core list for LED manaless Dredge.
I' ll do: -1 Sphinx, -1 Shell, +2 Phantasmagorian (geez... what a name^^)
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Hello all
i was wondering what peopls thoughts would be to using Thought Gorger over sphinx would be, as he can draw more cards is a discard outlet big beat stick that leaves your oponents thinking and scratching there heads and ichorid food,
Hey guys,
I went to a tournie last W-E and went 3-3. My list was the LED-deep Anal version. Sb was 4 Chancellor of the Annex, 1 Archon, 1 Elesh Norn, 3 Misty rainforest, 3 Forest, 3 Reverent Silence.
R1 against Merfolk 2-0. Just DDD & returning Shadows & Ichi for the win.
R2 against Alluren 1-2. G2 I had lethal on table, he just had 1 recruiter in hand. And then he topdecked an Alluren & combo'ed out. G3 he had leyline and I didn't board against it since I didn't see them G2. So GG
R3 against reanimator 2-0 I was faster then him.
R4 against Stifflenought. 2-1 G2 he got me with a T2 Dreadnought.
R5 against something control-like 1-2 G1 I won easy, G2&3 leyline resolved and he countered my Silences while beating with a meddling mage.
R6 against Alluren. 0-2 he was just 1 turn faster then me in both games.
I have never seen Thought Gorger before, but on paper Thought Gorger looks as tho' it has promise because it serves the roll of 2xPhantasmagorian and River Kelpie while also being a 10/10 Trampler without another Dread Return or Cabal Therapy to activate the draw. I mean, other than having bad synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, I am having a really hard time thinking of a reason this wouldn't be a strict upgrade to River Kelpie in Bauble Dredge variants because it adds an incredible amount of redundancy. I don't know whether or not it can replace Sphinx of Lost Truths tho' because it's rather vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares and slightly more conditional.
I'll definitely give it a go tho' because I really like the card in theorycraft.
@KevinTrudeau
I think you should probably cut a Dread Return and a Sphinx of Lost Truths before you cut Deep Analysis 3 and 4, mainly because once you get rolling with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis you don't need anywhere near as many copies of the Dread Return/Target package as traditional LED lists.
I've considering the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package in the MD before, and I think cutting Shambling Shell and Nether Shadow for them may be the right call if you're trying to goldfish game 1 as fast as possible.
Are you not finding Serum Powder to be the nut high? Not that I really have a problem with MD Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, but the deck really, really, really wants LED in it starting hand as much as possible.
What do you think of this list?
4 Serum Powder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Street Wraith
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
I have never seen Thought Gorger before, but on paper Thought Gorger looks as tho' it has promise because it serves the roll of 2xPhantasmagorian and River Kelpie while also being a 10/10 Trampler without another Dread Return or Cabal Therapy to activate the draw. I mean, other than having bad synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, I am having a really hard time thinking of a reason this wouldn't be a strict upgrade to River Kelpie in Bauble Dredge variants because it adds an incredible amount of redundancy. I don't know whether or not it can replace Sphinx of Lost Truths tho' because it's rather vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares and slightly more conditional.
I'll definitely give it a go tho' because I really like the card in theorycraft.
@KevinTrudeau
I think you should probably cut a Dread Return and a Sphinx of Lost Truths before you cut Deep Analysis 3 and 4, mainly because once you get rolling with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis you don't need anywhere near as many copies of the Dread Return/Target package as traditional LED lists.
I've considering the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package in the MD before, and I think cutting Shambling Shell and Nether Shadow for them may be the right call if you're trying to goldfish game 1 as fast as possible.
Are you not finding Serum Powder to be the nut high? Not that I really have a problem with MD Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, but the deck really, really, really wants LED in it starting hand as much as possible.
What do you think of this list?
4 Serum Powder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Street Wraith
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
thought gorger is, vonrabvle to swords however the draw afect is when it leaves the batle filed not when it gos to the grave yard so if they swords it there just killing them selves as you dredge the holl deck lol no one will want to kill it :P
@Final Fortune- I don't think the deck needs more than three Deep Analysis (at the very most), because I don't think LED absolutely needs to be played in an overly-aggressive manner in which having a set of DA would be beneficial. I feel that LED should, in large part, be played in a similar fashion game one to Baubles in that they should be generally cast only if you've got your engine going (basically, not being greedy with it by using it as a catalyst to start up the engine), meaning that you've got time to dredge into DA as you would Phantasmagorian.
In addition, I don't feel a set of DA would necessarily speed up the deck at all in comparison to two or three, simply because it is entirely predicated on LED mana. Unless you've got two LED, you can only cast one DA, which means you likely won't need a playset to up the chances of seeing multiples.
I am indeed not finding Serum Powder to be all that great. I'd rather play Probe over it because Probe guarantees an advantage if it's in your hand, whereas Powder only adds another variable. In addition, it was shown in that 50 game sample set I posted a few pages back to actually make the deck ~1/10 of a turn slower on average when drawn in an opener and even when used.
Unfortunately, I didn't find the Salvage/Ghast plan to be satisfactory in speeding up the deck. Dredging back two to bring back Bloodghast after binning my hand was just abysmal and kind of counteracted the speed boost of LED+DA.
Overall, my findings with the LED Manaless variant (oxymoron!) were satisfactory. The main reason why I wanted to try out an LED list in the first place was because I felt the deck could potentially come close in averaging the same speed on the back of just Probe and Street Wraith since Baubles I feel help reassure a T4 kill more so than up the chances of a T3 kill (at least with how I strategically play them), and running LED main would not only open up sideboard space, but give the deck a prospective chance of winning against faster decks if need be; I found that to be somewhat true. In addition, LED also opens up the possibility of mulliganing, and can also act as a Bauble in "drawing" ~seven cards by binning your hand, which means it might be as good in theory as Bauble already without the added benefit of DA. I still don't know if an LED list is as good as the six Bauble list I posted above, because as aj put it, the deck only needs to be one turn faster than the fundamental turn in (this, due in large part to Misstep, slower version of) Legacy, but I think the possibility is still wide open and needs to be tested much futher.
Sorry if my ramblings are somewhat incoherent, I've been pretty exhausted this past week.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
Unless you're playing with Madness cards, you can maintain priority when Thought Gorger's Enters-the-Battlefield trigger resolves and sacrifice it to a flashback spell.
The actual problem is this: You cast Dread Return. Dread Return resolves, plopping a Thought Gorger into play. You put the "+1/+ counter, discard hand" trigger on the stack. In response, your opponent casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Gorger. You gain 2 life and draw zero cards. Then the trigger resolves and you don't discard any cards because you didn't put any counters on Gorger.
thank you ajfirecracker i had not thought of it like that, you raise a verry good point and explaind it well tahnk you again
So there's this card coming soon...
Desperate Ravings - 1R
Instant
Draw two cards, then discard a card at random.
Flashback 2U
replacement for Deep Analysis?
This does indeed seem superior. The only real downsides Desperate Ravings has when compared to Deep Analysis are that it's not as good as when you have two LEDs, meaning you can't cast two and then potentially a third (or a Golgari Thug that you might need to dredge back and cast to hit the necessary three creatures for Dread Return), and that it might cause confusion with the abbreviation of Dread Return. Being able to possibly bin a dredger after bricking on a turn one or two LED activation+flashbacked draw spell is absolutely huge, and not losing three life is also pretty nice. Thanks for sharing that.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
That you can potentially cast it from your hand is a HUGE upgrade, but the third flashback mana is somewhat significant as well. You can't flashback one and activate a Cephalid Coliseum on the same turn.
Needing two of your very few lands is also way better than needing three, for those times when you can't live in Magical Christmasland and blow out your opponents with LED.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
