Therapy for Ritual. Without it, turn 1-2 kills are rare and if you don't have DR on turn 3 or dealt at least 10 dmg on turn 3, it is quite hard not to get killed.Originally Posted by Mojeh
@ Claymore: I think 4 Coliseums are way better then 4 Citadels. Not only because of the Lightning Bolts each time you tap it for colored mana, but also because Coliseum is an uncounterable Dredge enabler. You should not have issues casting your SB spells just using your other rainbow lands, you got 11 of them after all.
Why the Chosen in your board? I can't think of a matchup where other targets are not better.
Also, I have to advice strongly against Unmask. The only cards you really want to pitch to Unmask is Unmask. While in Vintage, Unmasks are definately good, I doub't they do anything in legacy.
And yes, Reanimator is not a good matchup.Maindeck Elesh Norn is not a thing I like.
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If I have no idea what's going on I usually therapy for LED first. LED is what makes their deck so fast and without it it's nigh impossible for them to kill on turn 1 or 2. After that, I know what they have and usually therapy for Rituals / Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, depending on the rest of their hand. Infernal is usually my first target if they just lay down the LEDs first in fear of Therapies.
The other reason why I take LEDs first is the simple fact that they have only that one card with that effect. If you theraoy for infernal and their hand has LED, Rituals and Burning Wish you're still dead. If you go after Wish and they have Infernal instead, you're still dead. Same goes for Rituals. They have Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual and if you therapy for the wrong one, they just kill you nonetheless.
100% agree on all points.
There is no way one can play less than 4 Coliseums for the reasons already stated.
Chosen isn't necessary atm. Against Combo FKZ, Hypnotist and Iona are better. Against Aggro Elesh Norn is better. Against Burn Iona is better.
Unmask is just really bad. Just really...
And if I expect lots of Reanimator, I usually cut the Firestorms for Leyline of the Voids in my sideboard. That deck is incredibly hard to beat.
EDIT: This forum is really annoying at times. Each time I post, it's posted twice...
Izor named some of the best stuff to pick off a storm player's hand.
You should be aware of what storm deck you are playing against, TES or ANT. ANT won't run burning wish for example. Against ANT dark ritual, LED, or Infernal tutor are your best bets. Against TES pick LED; pick infernal or wish depending what color mana they have available from lands.
I used to really suck at the storm matchup, then I practiced playing with TES a bunch and learned a lot about the deck. Made the MU much easier, and I recommend anyone struggling against those storm decks to do the same.
This. This is how I have done it, too.
Helps really a whole lot. Faerie macabre is my new toy of choice against Reanimator.
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That's pretty interesting too.
The only thing that kinda keeps me away from it is the simple fact that it doesn't hit Dredge, Loam and Past in Flames combo as hard as Leyline. And if I already dedicate important sb slots to graveyard hate, I feel that it should do something against everything that's graveyard based.
Just read this ^^. Made me laugh so hard... just awesome!
Leyline doesn't do anything against a competent reanimator player. As for Past in Flames combo, I don't know this matchup too good, but Iona has to be enough.
Also, Macabre pitches to Ichorid and it costs you a dredge 4 , two mana and a Sac outlet to get it back if you dredged it/ alredy used it.
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I really don't think you would need Macabre against the Loam or Past in Flames combo decks. The loam matchup should be favorable imo. The Past in Flames combo deck I would lump in with TES & ANT and consider it a similar matchup. Its not like we bring in grave hate against those decks even though they play stuff like IGG.
And while it would seem really narrow to just have Macabre for the reanimator matchup, I believe it to be the right call right now. Reanimator is the flavor of the week much like Hive Mind was. And people were sticking Angel's Grace in their 15 because of it. If you expect there to be a lot of reanimator in your next local tournament then I would consider Macabre. I know I just picked some up. My last tournament had 5 reanimator decks present and only 1 didn't make top 8. :/
Leyline is not the best against reanimator when the play cards like Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, and Chain of Vapor. Its not going to stick.
That's exactly why Macabre shines in this Matchup. Uncounterable recurring targeted hate. Nice.And pitches to Ichorid.Only problem is the Sideboardspace, I think we need at least 3 Macabres so my SB is :
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Hypnotist
3 Faerie Macabre
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Hello everyone,
I'm new to the deck and I have some questions.
For the Tireless Tribe + Putrid Imp players: how can you survive to a counterspell on the discard outlet? Is it safe enough to cast a creature so important with all the countermagic around?
For the DDD players: what is your strategy for mulligan?
If your going DDD you wan't to be on the draw, and you want to avoid mulliganing as much as possible. Each mulligan sets you back a turn and your already basically a turn behind because you need to discard naturally. Your deck will have more dredgers to avoid mulliganing for this reason.
If your planing on using Tribe / Putrid Imp and your discard outlet gets countered, -and you can't cast another, you usually assume the DDD role. This could mean waiting 2-3 turns before getting going, you can also cabal therapy yourself to put a dredger in the yard. A little while ago when Mental Misstep was running rampant manaless versions of the deck were more popular. Now that's less of an issue with that card banned. Lastly Firestorm has the discard effect as part of it's casting cost, this makes the effect uncountable.(Could be wrong on that)
Thats the main reason one plays Firestorm. Also because Maindeck answers to Scavenging Ooze.
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I wouldn't really run Firestorm Main. It helps against the aggro decks yes, but those are matchups you should't have a problem against anyway. I would consider them in the board though to take care of critters like Gaddock Teeg, Scavenging Ooze, and even stuff like KoTR who usually fetches Bojuka Bog. Not to mention bringing them out of the side is great against Merfolk to serve as an uncounterable discard outlet.
Ooze count might go up from the opponent's sideboard. If they do run it main its usually 1. And barring them just straight up having it in their oppening hand they will most likely have to green sun for it. By then it should be over imo. Your graveyard should be fat enough where it doesn't matter.
@Caralord. This version of the deck has multiple ways for you to discard your dredgers. Outside of Imp/Tribe you still have cabal therapy, breakthrough, careful study, and even cephalid colisseum at times. If they counter your discard dork you should theoretically have a backup plan. Unless of course you've already mulled to 4. In that case getting your only discard outlet countered will mean curtains.
EDIT: Speaking on KoTR. I'm talking about it in a Junk Deck where they have access to Mox diamond and pump him out turn 2 or so. Although I guess the same could be said for Ooze with regards to Noble Hierach & GZ. Maybe the idea of both is just a lot scarier than the situation comes up.
Firestorm is very good against Aggro (specially tribal) and Countermagic. I believe it's worth the shot, depending on your metagame.
You can't print enough middle fingers on a magic cards to properly describe Firestorm. The card is just THIS good, really. I cannot understand all the criticism.
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Well, it's not like Firestorm hadn't always been available for Dredge. It was just only rarely played, especially never maindeck. The idea of running it main only came up with the printing of Mental Misstep. Nonetheless, Dredge became a bit weaker under Misstep, Firestorm obviously couldn't prevent that from happening (although I admit that the time to test that wasn't really long). Now Misstep is gone again, and Dredge has become stronger again, judging by the fact that we just got back into the DTB forum. With Misstep, the only reason why people considered Firestorm main is now gone.
Now, I'm not saying that it's inherently bad to run it main. I just think that it has yet to be proven that it has some potential in the main board, even after Misstep is banned. I know that there is the pesky Ooze, but that alone shouldn't make the difference.
So for me it's pretty understandable that people are still somewhat hesitant towards the 4 Firestorm main.
The card is insanely good, that's obvious to all of us. It's just that it doesn't always 100% do what this deck wants it to do. Cleaning the opposing board while providing an uncounterable discard out is broken. But 1 mana: discard two cards and shock you and your opponent is just weak. Really weak, if you compare it to Careful Study and the dorks. Sometimes it kills your Bridges. And it doesn't do anything in multiples, which is another important point noone has really ever brought up.
So the question is whether we want such a sometimes broken, but sometimes also mediocre card in the main deck. For me, the consistency of good ol' Tribe is better than the possible awesomeness of a Firestorm. That's why I'm a bit confused that the Germans, who have always strived for max consistency, brought that up. Let me just remind you that the writer of the German Dredge thread himself had just cut Firestorms from his sideboard shortly before Misstep was printed. His reasoning was literally: Tribe just does the same, just better. I'm still wondering where that change of mind comes from. I think I'm gonna ask him.
It's broken against Merfolk, Goblins, Bladecontrol, Countertop, Bant, Maverick and Elves.
It's merely "ok" against all sort of non-creature based combo, and even so, can be a finisher when your opponent goes at low life with Ad Nauseam.
On the other hand, Firestorm don't have a body to sacrifice, can remove your own Bridges and sometimes leave you stuck, because eventually you can't find a second Dredger to chain.
That being said, at least here in Brazil, I strongly believe Firestorm is worth the shot.
-We are considering a list with only 1 DR, so the missing body may be not that relevant.
-Removing your own bridges is not a problem when you use Firestorm as your first discard-outlet, and can eventually kill some sort of annoying guys, like Cursecatcher, Scavenging Ooze, Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch (delaying Natural Order).
-It can be used as a token-maker, when in combat, after blockers are declared, you just kill your blocked Ichorid/Moebas, get tokens and burn your opponent.
I am definitely going to play 4 maindecked Firestorm at the Brazilian Nationals, next month.
Hi all, I have a question about certain ruling regarding this deck.
I have a pimp in play, and I cast breakthrough. I asked for permission from my opponent, and when he said OK, can I still respond to it by discarding cards from Pimp ability? Or is it too late to do that?
Thanks
Sadly you can't. By asking if your spell resolves, you are passing priority to your opponent. When he passes priority (by saying OK), then both players passed and Breakthrough resolves.
Interesting. Could you share your whole list? Maybe via PM?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
@Gui: No problem. At first, I was just cutting Tribes for Firestorms, using the standard list. Then HokusSchmokus cut 1 DR for the 4th Ichorid.
I liked the idea, it improves Firestorm even more, and makes the Merfolk matchup much easier.
So, at the moment, I am playing HokusSchmokus' list:
4x City of Brass
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Tarnished Citadel
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
1x Dread Return
4x Firestorm
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
I've done the math before to cut the 15th land, and in paper, it looks awesome, although I've never tested it in games. So, maybe I'd cut the 3th Tarnished Citadel for some other stuff, probably returning the second DR, or a Darkblast... I really don't know yet.
There's still almost a whole month before Nationals, so I am going to re-think this list several times until the time comes.
Ah, by the way, my sideboard first idea is like this:
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Dread Return (if the second isn't in main deck yet)
1x Elesh Norn, Great Cenobite
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Flame-Kin Zealot (maybe Iona in this slot)
1x Angel of Despair
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Leyline of the Void
- Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim: Chain can be casted with any land, provide exactly the same effect against Leyline of the Void (and it's what it meant to be), and as a bonus, can be used to bounce a creature against Reanimator and Marit Lage.decks. Does not give 4 life. Against some sort of BG decks, can be used to clean the path, bouncing a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker if they haven't showed a Leyline.
- Flame-Kin Zealot over Iona: Although I am not sure about this slot, Zealot seems better against Tendrils.decks simply because Iona sometimes locks a color, and they can still combo without it (You name Black, and they bounce her... you name blue, and they just combo-off anyway, etc ). In combo matchup, your bridges will probably stay at GY, so a reanimated Zealot should do the job as would Iona, just faster and safer.
-Angel of Despair over Terastodon and Woodfall Primus: Simply because our vindicate-like-angel can kill creatures. It's just a big deal against Reanimator, Emrakul and Peacekeeper. Also, it's evasive, and don't provide tokens to your opponent, and don't need a sacrifice outlet to be maximized.
-A single Leyline of the Void: As stated before, just as a mind trick, although I'm still not sure about it yet. Seems a bit risky.
I'd like to hear thoughts about improving the Storm-matchup, maybe I'll just find 3 slots in SB to fit some Brainstorms/Winds of Change.
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