All B/R update speculation.

[Fade]

ZOMG!1 Deck does well in one tournamentz! Quick nuke it from orbit before we're slaves to the <last week's deck> overlord!

This is becoming Legacy's version of the Water Cooler discussion about last night's basketball game.

Sadly, it is the view of most of the legacy population who watch/read these weekly tournaments. Everyone is looking for the best deck or the hottest new tech and making conclusions before actually thinking about what can be done to improve the matchup. Basing from the results this past weekend, next weekend we are probably going to see a lot more Maverick because people see it as the newest shiny toy to play with.

[majikal]

Sadly, it is the view of most of the legacy population who watch/read these weekly tournaments. Everyone is looking for the best deck or the hottest new tech and making conclusions before actually thinking about what can be done to improve the matchup. Basing from the results this past weekend, next weekend we are probably going to see a lot more Maverick because people see it as the newest shiny toy to play with.

Unfortunately this.

[Julian23]

To be fair, if you (generally speaking) really dislike Maverick so much, stop complaining and start casting your Show and Tells for Hive Mind instead of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Progenitus. It's the next logical step in the metagame. This, or fast combo like Spanish Inqusition.

[xfxf]

Uhm, if I'm not mistaken the talk was about unbanning and not about banning. And it was a conversation going on before the 20th so why do some of you guys rush in here to bash supposedly knee-jerk banning reactions when there is none?

[majikal]

Uhm, if I'm not mistaken the talk was about unbanning and not about banning. And it was a conversation going on before the 20th so why do some of you guys rush in here to bash supposedly knee-jerk banning reactions when there is none?

This confuses me as well. Nobody has proposed banning anything at the moment, but as a thought exercise I posited a what-if scenario where Maverick continued to dominate as it has this past weekend.

[Ane]

What most people completely gloss over is that while 6/8 of the t8 were maverick decks, The next 8 decks didn't have any maverick represented. Tie-breaks or draws are all that separate those decks from a t8 performance. People are kvetching for no particular reason.

[Koby]

What most people completely gloss over is that while 6/8 of the t8 were maverick decks, The next 8 decks didn't have any maverick represented. Tie-breaks or draws are all that separate those decks from a t8 performance. People are kvetching for no particular reason.

Logic and reason have no place here! Get out with your rational thinking! <jk>

Sadly, only the "Top 8" results are the most interesting, not the totalized tournament. We'll have to wait for "Too Much Info" column to shed some light on what happened. I suspect it will be about 65% win rate for GW stock maverick, and about 55+% for splashes; making it the most winningest deck in the Baltimore Open.

[Fade]

To be fair, if you (generally speaking) really dislike Maverick so much, stop complaining and start casting your Show and Tells for Hive Mind instead of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Progenitus. It's the next logical step in the metagame. This, or fast combo like Spanish Inqusition.

I completely agree with you. Instead of people's first reaction being to ban/unban cards it should be to adjust with the meta. The meta will put decks back in their place unless the strategy behind the deck is too overwhelming <Ahem. Survival/Flash>

Uhm, if I'm not mistaken the talk was about unbanning and not about banning. And it was a conversation going on before the 20th so why do some of you guys rush in here to bash supposedly knee-jerk banning reactions when there is none?

If I'm not mistaken I think the card people have been talking about unbanning is Mystical tutor "due to the lack of combo." This is probably due to the same reaction from the GP and recent SCG tourneys as Esper Blade, UW Control, and Maverick have been performing well. However, TES, Hive Mind, Sneak and Show, and High Tide have all been present in the meta and I believe are starting to gain more popularity.

Granted I believe the reason that Mystical Tutor was banned was unjustified, I don't know if it should be unbanned to fuel the resurgence of combo when combo is already doing fairly well for itself.

[Gheizen64]

Rather than Mystical Tutor, I think Vampiric Tutor should be a card to consider unbanning.

Why? Obviously Mystical Tutor is a card that is going to get shoved back into the pre-existing combo decks, increasing their power level to the point where we could go back to a healthy aggro/combo/control metagame (not saying we aren't there now). However, Mystical is a) blue, b) narrower in its application, and c) does not cost any life.

Vampiric Tutor would take the same slot, but would have some obvious advantages for the format. It could allow other, non-spell based combo decks to be more viable (e.g. Dark Depths) or simply fit into a mid-range control deck as a way to tutor for an answer card (e.g.: I could see it fitting into a deck like Nic Fit or other such non-blue decks as a way to compensate for not running Ponder/Brainstorm). It not being blue and costing 2 life *is* relevant (e.g. thats 2 cards for Ad Nauseam, and it can't pitch to FoW in Reanimator).

The card is somewhat comparable to GSZ in that it increases consistency in finding threats/answers, except that for the expense of instant speed and one mana, you still have to draw the target and cast it naturally. I am well aware that the card is busted in comparison, but the decks that would beat Vampiric Tutor decks would likely die to the 'fair' decks that play GSZ/SFM.

There are plenty of blue-based como decks that would definitely want to play it, but aren't currently playing black. Splashing for a second or third color would increase their susceptibility to Stifle, Wasteland, and possibly just inherent mana screw. So High Tide/Hive Mind/Show and Tell might want to consider playing it, but doing so increases the risk of a blowout.

There have been plenty of cards recently printed that could hose the card if it became too dominant. Spell Pierce exists, which means a player that aggressively casts a t1 Tutor blindly could get blown out when they try to actually play their target. Other cards like Thought Scour could simply negate the card. Counterbalance could return as a viable strategy to prey upon decks abusing it (which would in turn get stomped on by GSZ decks).

I feel that given that "fair" tutors like GSZ, Knight of the Reliquary, and Stoneforge Mystic are allowed in the format, Vampiric Tutor should/could also be allowed. Even with the possibility of Vampiric Tutor enabling combo decks, this still isn't Vintage where it would be as easy to win on turn 2. There is no Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Fastbond/Gush, etc. I may be completely off-base here, but I think Vampiric Tutor could bring back old dead strategies, enable new ones, and lead to healthier more varied format.

This is how i think as well. The more i think about it, the more Vamp seems less dangerous (in the sense that it's better for the variety of the format) than mystical to me. AnT combo thrive on life total, meaning the two life is usually 1 less card for the possibility to tutor for a land or a LED (+ less information to your opponent). Some combo decks thrive on high blue count for FoW protection or high tide. The only combo deck that would get substantially better are SnT decks (hive mind and Sneak and Show).
Other creature-based or enchantment based combo wouldn't get too strong from Vamp being unbanned (enchantress has enlightened that is on color with no need to splash, elves has GSZ that isn't card disadvantage, Dark Depths combo isn't really that good, reanimator has problems running FoW if you run vampiric).
Thinking about it, i'd gladly barter Vamp for SnT, Vamp is the more interesting card anyway, allowing for MonoB reanimator, Rock decks with silver bullets and all the likes.

However, even with an eventual ban of SnT removing the SnT decks from the picture, i think Reanimator would be still too good. That's a pity since i'd like to see black (and red) a bit more played in the format, not only as splash colors. Imperial Seal if reprinted maybe... but maybe not.

[Tammit67]

Sadly, only the "Top 8" results are the most interesting, not the totalized tournament. We'll have to wait for "Too Much Info" column to shed some light on what happened. I suspect it will be about 65% win rate for GW stock maverick, and about 55+% for splashes; making it the most winningest deck in the Baltimore Open.

If no one else at Baltimore brought candlabras, the Hatfields bolstered the High tide win percentages very well. I'd love to play that deck, I just don't have close to enough for candlabras laying around.

As an extention to the above point, I think combo is fine right now, but the most successful combo deck of the past few weeks has very niche, very expensive cards and prices people away from it.

(Also the SCG series is literally +100 people every weekend playing what won the last week, +50 playing the winning list from two weeks ago, etc...)

[Hanni]

These SCG discussions always make me laugh, followed by sadness. Not sure why I'm contributing to this dicussion, actually...

Anyway, ban GSZ!!!!!11!!

[Koby]

I
(Also the SCG series is literally +100 people every weekend playing what won the last week, +50 playing the winning list from two weeks ago, etc...)

+20 people who are still playing decks from last year (Goblins, Merfolk, etc)

[dontbiteitholmes]

+20 people who are still playing decks from last year (Goblins, Merfolk, etc)

Don't forget the 20 people playing whatever they can afford to throw together who have been playing Magic for a single digit number of months.

I am just speculating about what impact it would have on the format. I'm not sure there is anything existing now that would make it more broken than it was when Mystical was in the format. I guess Reanimator now has Jin-Gitaxias?

Mystical Tutor was banned because of the supposed "gentleman's agreement". As Legacy has moved away from being a more casual format to an accepted competitive one, I'm not sure why this reasoning should hold up. I don't have statistical backing to reference, but I don't think Mystical Tutor decks were completely dominating the format while the card was legal. [Aside from Flash-era Legacy, but Flash was rightfully banned]

edit: link to article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...tg/daily/ld/96

If you read this article today, and see how far the format has come since then, the reasoning for the ban seems pretty weak. " The decks were just so strong that opponents not set up in their maindecks or that didn't sideboard heavily against us couldn't compete."

ORLY?? Kind of like Dredge? Or Hive Mind? Or even against MAVERICK? You can't compete in this format devoid of consideration for the decks you face. The argument that non-blue decks could no longer compete is gradually getting weaker and weaker, as G/W continues to get more and more ridiculous hate-bears.

Yeah in all fairness though flash was different. Hive Mind in basically a 3 card combo that costs 3 while flash was a 2 card combo that cost 2 and the maindeck and sideboard consideration was like 4-8 MD cards and half your sideboard because you knew every other round was going to be flash.

The best argument for unbanning Mystical Tutor can be the amount of counterspells being played and the amount of combo being successful. The most "blue" deck, Stoneblade, started transforming into it's esper form with minimal counterspells, Maverick is more widespread than anything else yet combo is not doing well. If blue were everywhere we could say it's not a good meta for combo. But currently Maverick builds are more popular yet combo can't get a strong standing.

I still say Mystical should stay banned. Not only does it let you get your best instant or Sorc EOT for one mana at instant speed, it also lets you run the wishboard from hell where you dedicate one slot that blows out a specific problem matchup or answer to your combo x 10 and a couple flex spots then you SB in 1 or 2 cards and if you don't need your silver bullet you can just get your wincon enabler instead and win on the spot next turn (If it were to come back it'd just be like, hey Maverick I run 1x Massacre in my sb and invalidate every hatebear in your deck with one SB slot I can tutor for). Not to mention GSZ, E.Tutor, SFM get permanents which are 1000x easier to deal with. You can always nuke a Batterskull, Swords a creature, or Deed away any number of enchantments, but once a Instant or Sorc resolves and invalidates your answer to combo or gives them the win there's not much you can do short of hope you play blue. Even if MT is eventually unbanned there are probably 10 safer cards that deserve to come off the ban list first but I'd leave well enough alone there for now.

[Pippin]

It's completely ridiculous to even have all this talk about a banning just from one tournament.

To be honest, I think that most of the people here are mocking the idea of banning something in Maverick and were using sarcasm.

Anyway, my message to the "Ban one card each month" crew - start playing decks with Deed/WoG, use cards like Sulfur Elemental or -x/-x effects in combo decks and there you have it. It's even easier than spamming the forum in hope that Lapille will eventually convince Wotc folks to ban something!

[menace13]

To be honest, I think that most of the people here are mocking the idea of banning something in Maverick and were using sarcasm.

Anyway, my message to the "Ban one card each month" crew - start playing decks with Deed/WoG, use cards like Sulfur Elemental or -x/-x effects in combo decks and there you have it. It's even easier than spamming the forum in hope that Lapille will eventually convince Wotc folks to ban something!

Can't blame my boy Tom any longer. He will now power creep and break D&D.

[Awaclus]

Control and midrange hadn't been a part of the format for years. Now they're back and people want to ban SFM and GSZ because they make Zoo suck.

When control decks beat aggro decks, there is something wrong with them.

[Anusien]

Anyone agitating for cards that were banned post-format creation to be unbanned probably don't understand why they were banned in the first place.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well I haven't heard anyone advocating for Flash being unbanned. Mystical Tutor could easily be unbanned as there was never a good reason to ban it to start with. Survival could be unbanned if Vengevine were banned instead.

[dontbiteitholmes]

When control decks beat aggro decks, there is something wrong with them.

This isn't the old days.

It used to be more or less Rock/Paper/Scissors with Aggro>Control>Combo>Aggro but that's not the case anymore and hasn't been for a while. Now it's more like a pentagram with Aggro, Aggro Control, Combo, Control, and Midrange Aggro. Traditional Aggro is pretty weak right now because it has trouble against Batterskull the fast big guys of Midrange and the same problem with Combo it's always had. Still Burn has won events in the past 2 months and it doesn't get more aggro than that. There was a good 5 year stretch where Control was by far the worst deck type. It couldn't beat Aggro reliably and it was too slow against combo unless you resolved a Counterbalance and it straight up scooped to Merfolk which was the most played deck. Every deck type can't always be balanced perfectly, but I'm not ready to throw control and midrange under the bus just so people can rely on Nacatl and burn again.

[Dzra]

Well I haven't heard anyone advocating for Flash being unbanned. Mystical Tutor could easily be unbanned as there was never a good reason to ban it to start with. Survival could be unbanned if Vengevine were banned instead.

I was very much against the banning of Survival when it happened, but looking back, I can see how GW Survival was basically the threat density and toolbox of GW with the explosiveness of a Dredge deck. That GW has gotten even better since the banning, I really doubt that they could unban Survival unless they unbanned Mystical Tutor with it.

As for Mystical, I'm a mixed bag. It basically makes Storm and Reanimator an unwinnable MU for non-Blue decks. I think that while some MUs are favorable, I'd prefer the metagame to stay away from a clearcut Rock, Paper, Scissors environment.

Personally, I think a good solution might be to unban Survival of the Fittest, Mystical Tutor, and Mental Misstep. Let combo regain some of their consistency via Mystical to help keep Survival in check and let all decks have a good answer to Mystical Tutor (and Entomb, Dark Ritual, and the whole host of other combo-enabling 1-drops).

The only problem is that Mental Misstep would have some fallout with non-combo decks. Goblins is already dead on its own, so that's not so much a concern anymore. Mother of Runes would instantly get a bit worse. Nimble Mongoose probably gets hurt (although RUG decks would definitely pick Misstep up in a heart beat). Targeted discard becomes more unreliable.

It'd be interesting to see the meta if these three were to be unbanned.

GW would lose some steam due to Misstep and Mystical, but would pickup Survival (and Missteps of their own post-board).

Storm and Reanimator would get a lot more consistent due to Mystical, but players would have more ways to fight them with Misstep.

RUG is very vulnerable to Misstep, but at the same time, can utilize it very well. Natural Order becomes an option again.

UW Stoneblade has more answers to fight combo and GW's early game, but would have to fight against a superior late game engine in Survival. UWB Stoneblade loses the punch of its targeted discard.

Fish gains a lot from Misstep, but likely still can't fight Survival (and Batterskull).

Dredge and Burn lose ground on all fronts.

Hymn is the go-to discard choice again.

It'd be interesting to say the least.