- Even with my numbers overvaluing the duals by some, you do have to admit that shockland format is more accessible than real dual land format.Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
We're also not including other expensive cards, like Jace, Wasteland and Karakas. Modern has less cards of that value that are non-duals (I think Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Clique are the big ones).
- It's more a matter of PR and less ab out prices. WotC might get a really bad rep for going back on a promise they made. The value of the cards changing is completely irrelevant: collectors might perceive the prices tanking (regardless of how logical they might be thinking) and this could cause them to lash out at WotC.
- Then why did WotC make Modern and not drop the Reserved list?Not only that, they aren't even legally bound to the reserved list and "Collectors" is a facade. This vaguely referenced group of people that are somehow holding Wizards to something don't really exist in any sort of sense.
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but what a company says or what a person says is meaningless compared to what a company does or a person does. WotC did not drop the Reserved list. WotC DID make Modern to solve the "reprint" issue.
I can afford the cards. I actually own Reanimator, Storm/TES, Belcher, most of UW Blade. I just don't want to sped a bazzilion dollars to build the new flavor of the week deck. Got better things to spend my money on.
There's now a lot of Legacy in my area and NO Modern. If Legacy dies, people will move to Modern. I wanna play Modern, therefore I want Legacy to die.
i think that modern exist because extended died, and they need a format that use all the bad cards that didn't make the cut for legacy, not to kill legacy. Modern is so restricted... it can't compete with a real eternal format
srry 4 my english
Rosewater was pretty clear on the ComicCon panel. Legacy is unsustainable. We created Modern to have an eternal format we can support. The End.
Next year, Modern will span ten years, almost like when Legacy was created (11 years of sets at the time). Give it time.
It's also a fun and reasonably cheap format.
It's just really hard to see how legacy is dying living in Los Angeles. This Sunday there are 3 legacy tournys happening in the greater Los Angeles area with forces underground seas and blue fetches etc going on. They will all most likely have minimum of 6 rounds and cut to top 8. This happens every month here and the turn out just keeps gettin better and better.
Meanwhile if you announce a modern tourny in the area it's likely that it'll have a low player count.
If modern had some of the amazing cards that are on the banned list available to them I'd be thrilled. I was sooo stoked when they announced modern thinking I'd be able to play UB fairies with jace. Or hexmage depths, or sfm, Or dredge, or anything other than hurp durp combat phase. The whole format is just bash bash bash. And none of the tier 1 decks have anything interesting going on. Pod angel/exarch was pretty neat.
westcoast degeneracy
It's easy to ignore the rot when it hasn't yet spread to the periphery.
It's not just about the prices. Well it is, but it's really also about the hard number of dual lands that exist out there. 300,000 of each dual- then consider than that a bunch of them are mostly useless (Plateau, Badlands) and don't enable their owners to play great Legacy decks. Then consider that even if some decks run Bayou, Scrubland etc., to play the widest range of top-tier decks you need Blue duals. Then consider that you usually want a playset or close to a playset of each dual for your decks- that divides the number of duals by ~4 for each player.
Then consider that there are tons of them sitting around in the binders of "collectors" who hoard these things. Then consider that there are people who own multiple playsets- if I own a playset of U Seas and a playset of Tundras, I'm locking up more cards, and even more so if I own two playsets of U Seas. Then consider the inevitable decay in the number due to entropy and wear over time, and the fact that in Magic's early days people were a lot more cavalier about cards and some % of them got destroyed/lost/abandoned in the process.
Then consider that EDH exists and people want singleton duals for that (and they don't always play legacy).
Maybe there are only 65,000 people who can have playsets of Tundras or U Seas for the purpose of playing Legacy - in the world- and there will be many people who own both or part of both. Whether the price is $50 or $150 for a blue dual, Legacy cannot help but be an incestuous format, where the number of players is relatively fixed, and for each new person who comes in, someone leaves.
Of course, there is the ghetto of players who are forced to play Dredge, or Affinity, or Burn, but players don't like being in that ghetto. Even if they like those decks, they don't like being forced into those decks.
Bardo, Site AdminNowhere do you see: Efficient Answers to Other Cards. Force and MMS will never be banned. Deal.
I get your point here, but you are overlooking some things. First, is that the majority of mulitcolored decks do not need or use 4 duals, that is unsustainable in 3+ color decks. Also, people fear nonbasic hate enough to cut down on dual lands count. Additionally, you can never count out some dual lands as useless. The beauty of the eternal format is that we never know what is going to be printed, how it will change the format, and what decks/ combos will be created. W/R could become the nest best color combo with the printing of a single card.It's not just about the prices. Well it is, but it's really also about the hard number of dual lands that exist out there. 300,000 of each dual- then consider than that a bunch of them are mostly useless (Plateau, Badlands) and don't enable their owners to play great Legacy decks. Then consider that even if some decks run Bayou, Scrubland etc., to play the widest range of top-tier decks you need Blue duals. Then consider that you usually want a playset or close to a playset of each dual for your decks- that divides the number of duals by ~4 for each player.
This is assuming a point you make later, that people will be playing decks that NEED dual lands, which is not a necessary condition for legacy. And, as we have witnessed from the continual growth of the format, there ARE new players coming in all the time, so even if this point is true, we have yet to hit that ceiling.Maybe there are only 65,000 people who can have playsets of Tundras or U Seas for the purpose of playing Legacy - in the world- and there will be many people who own both or part of both. Whether the price is $50 or $150 for a blue dual, Legacy cannot help but be an incestuous format, where the number of players is relatively fixed, and for each new person who comes in, someone leaves.
Also, not true. People love playing those decks. It feels great to roll on a $1000+ deck with your $100 burn deck. But that is not even the point, they are legitimate and viable strategies that people really enjoy playing. Also, I think this comment is simplifying the amount of decks without duals. You can add: U/R Delver (with price of progress), MUD, Staxx/staxx varients, MUC, The Gate, Goblins, Elves, Pox, Merfolk, Dragon Stompy, Death and Taxes, Belcher (only 1 dual), SI, Enchantress, Imperial Painter, and high tide (the last two have very pricey and rare cards, but they are still not duals). The fact of the matter, the varience of Legacy is something that NO other mtg format can offer, aside from maybe EDH. There are, as you have now seen, MANY viable decks that are not dual land contingent.Of course, there is the ghetto of players who are forced to play Dredge, or Affinity, or Burn, but players don't like being in that ghetto. Even if they like those decks, they don't like being forced into those decks.
This is not what Rosewater said, he said we can support Modern while the Reserve list restricts how Wizards can support Eternal Formats, they never said it was unsustainable nor that they are going to stop supporting Eternal Formats
Modern =/= Eternal Format or Scavenging Ooze and friends would be Modern legal cards
and has been said there are many staples in Legacy that aren't reserved (like Force Of Will and Brainstorm)
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
As someone posted on here before, it's what they didn't say.
Nevertheless, we'll know in a couple of years who is right.
That's like any bible thumpers response to not believing Jesus is the son of god.
"We'll know when we die then right?"
How about this. Present solutions to Aaron on twitter or via email. I've been very vocal about modern, vintage, legacy, and modo via email with various departments of wotc. And I suggest you all do the same thing. Currently the sky is not falling. Attendance keeps going up, an legacy is booming.
Modern however with 2x support, a quarter of the price of entry, isn't.
westcoast degeneracy
@ Mr.C
I believe it was me who said that. Then some people took my posts out of context and claimed we were writing conspiracy theories etc. I was just stating the fact that it's as obvious as you can make it while being political towards a wide player base.
I think the format is in the hands of players like us. As long as people keep playing it death of the format is a fantasy. However, as bodies like SCG, Wizards themselves, local stores etc. start pushing Modern more and more it will naturally come to the forefront. This may result in the decrease of organized play of Legacy over time. It's not a death per se but more like being sidetracked. And I believe this will happen in time for sure. Modern will grow, Legacy will stay at a certain threshold.
That's why I think it's important when Wizards don't say anything about Legacy and emphasize their support for Modern.
My big issue isn't so much the lack of Blue cantrips that are head and shoulders better than anything else (which is definitely a problem in Legacy, no doubt)...it's the lack of anything to reduce variance and get you the cards you need. Things like tutors (Enlightened, Worldly, Entomb), card selection enchantments (Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, even Soothsaying could be playable), Top, archetype-specific tutors (GSZ, Matron, Sterling Grove, Buried Alive, Gamble), and good dig (Impulse, Careful Study, Goblin Ringleader, etc). There's also two blocks of Cycling absent, some of which see play in Legacy, and some of which could easily see play in a Modern format (mostly Onslaught block stuff).
Because decks don't have access to cards like this, it's hard to have the right card at the right time to deal with threats. Modern is an eternal format, and you need specialized tools to combat strong, linear strategies. But it's absolutely miserable when it comes to sideboarding. Not only do you have to deal with the fact that your sideboard is effectively "smaller" because you can't count on cantrips or tutors to dig up one-ofs or two-ofs, but even if you make the right 75 and do your sideboarding well, you're at the mercy of your opening hand plus some draws. A lot of games are decided before a play is even made.
I've got to be honest...I don't like most of these cards. I like Dark Confidant and most planeswalkers, Command, Remand, and Witness are okay, but the rest...not so much. I like card advantage dudes that promote interactivity, and in which many archetypes have a chance to stop you from attaining card advantage, or at least minimize the gain. The trend of aggressively costed critters with spells tacked on is anathema to this. I can kill a Confidant before the advantage starts rolling in, I can edict an Enchantress, I can swing into most Planeswalkers and kill them without having to use a piece of removal (thus not losing card advantage, only a bit of tempo), but what do non-Blue decks do against stuff like Snappy, Huntmaster, Thragtusk? And what does anyone not running Canonist (or jank like Double Negative) do against BBE? Short of counterspells, these cards always put you up in the CA game...there just aren't any downsides to playing them out. Gone are the days of Flametongue Kavu's ability sometimes keeping him stuck in your hand or cards like Crypt Angel and Phyrexian Delver being appropriately costed...just play out your Geralf's Messenger, Resto Angel, Titan, Thragtusk, Snappy, and get value on a great, aggressively costed body. Opponent removes it? No biggie...you already got a ton out of it. I don't feel like I'm getting there when playing these types of cards, I feel like ludicrous power creep is doing all the work.One effect you may notice due to the lack of overpowered cantrips is the use of so many card-advantage cards. Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Huntmaster of the Fells, Bloodbraid Elf, planeswalkers, Remand, Cryptic Command, Restoration Angel, Snapcaster Mage, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness. All of these cards give you card advantage, and playing with a good number of them in a deck is not only fun (since I enjoy playing 2 for 1 style cards), it allows you to play games where you can really grind out wins from playskill.
Sorry for the rant, but I really detest the trend of Magic: The Entering (The Battlefield). It doesn't create interesting play-states, and it makes Blue's monopoly on stack interaction even more annoying; not only are they the best at stopping combo, but the best at stopping opponents from gaining card advantage now too! And based on cards like Armada Wurm, it doesn't seem like Wizards is going to let up on this style...making constructed formats that are more influenced by the new design thrusts less and less appealing to me. If Wizards want us to be interacting with critters on the board, then I might as well stick to Limited in which that's actually fun most of the time.
To me even with Tec Edge, there just isn't the same ubiquity of non-basic hate in the Modern meta, when compared to Legacy, to make playing tons of non-basics or playing strategies heavily reliant upon them (without protection/recursion) a shaky proposition. Whether or not this is a good thing is debatable, but lands have certainly been experiencing some power creep as of late, and lands can easily be fitted into decks/archetypes while answers to them can't. Plus, I think having choices is more interesting in a metagame and having a choice of going heavy on non-basics for better mana selection versus using more basics to dodge hate (like in Legacy) is a good choice to have, especially from a budget player's perspective (you can't get cheaper than basics, unless you have to sling Beta/APAC/Euro/Guru/Summer).Great point, and the only thing I'm unhappy with. Really, Tectonic Edge is much better than you'd assume off of first glance, which you missed. I'd say its the best non-basic land hate in the format. Some decks are running 3-4 main now, and you'd be surprised at how effective it is. The only thing that I'm upset with in terms of land hate is there isn't anything that can really punish 100% non-basic manabases. I've tried with Choke, but even UW decks only run ~6 islands total, due to so many dual options. I wish they had Price of Progress or Back to Basics, or something similar, but this is my only problem.
I didn't really say what I felt in a good way. My bad, I'll try and not suck at communication this time, though we'll see how well I do.Once again, this is exactly what any format looks like before you actually play in it. What's lifegain Aggro? You're just wrong if you think that playing a Modern deck well requires no skill.
I guess the best way to try and get at my feeling on "skill" in Modern decks is through a bit of analogy. Burn in Legacy is a deck that is considered to be less "skillful" than others because it has relatively simple lines of play and an amateur to the deck can pick it up and not fall flat on their face. That's not to say it doesn't reward skill, only that the return on investment to playing the deck is a lot less than something like, say, Doomsday. There's going to be a much more noticeable difference between a rookie and a pro with certain decks when compared to others, where the difference is only borne out in tough situations or over a large number of matches.
And my problem with Modern is that too many of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks tend to be closer to the Burn model of skill than the Doomsday one. For reference, the decks I've played with (albeit not a ton of playtime):
-Shamans/Elementals: I like this one, so I listed it first. With the Harbingers and Fauna Shaman you have a good way of getting the cards you need (and you can do toolbox setups), and the combat math can get somewhat interesting. Unfortunately, it sucks as a deck, just not having the raw muscle/speed to compete with most aggro, can't stop ramp, and rolls over dead to combo.
-Soul Sisters/Martyr-Proc: It's a really interesting archetype. I like the idea of lifegain aggro, it has some pretty explosive starts, and I love how it used to completely own Kiki/Twin combo (before Resto Angel showed up). Sadly, while conley Wood's creation was a stroke of brilliance, the deck doesn't require nearly as much mental firepower to run. Sure, there's better orders to play things out in certain situations, but that's about it, especially given the fact that most sweepers in the format don't even dent the heavy hitters once they're pumped, so over-extending is mostly a-okay.
-Jund: This will be contentious, but this deck is dumb from a play perspective. Jund is a well oiled machine, and tuning it for the metagame certainly requires some serious skill, but once you're at the race, the vehicle does more than the driver does. BBE is the main culprit, but when you are packing extremely versatile removal like Pulse and possibly Decay/Dreadbore, you don't need to really work as hard.
-Eggs: I love that this combo works, and it's fun enough to try once or twice (no more) just for the experience, but this combo is torturous to watch or play against if you aren't running counters. It's relatively resilient against discard, takes about 15+ minutes on the "going off" turn, and isn't even "difficult" to play...just tedious cycling through a bunch of spheres, baubles, and stars.
Delver decks (U/R, U/W, American Delvers, etc.): It's a Delver deck without cantrips, removing 70% of the tough choices. I guess Clique can show off some skill, but that's about it. You're just coasting on the draws in many cases.
Kiki/Twin Combo: I don't have much experience here, but I didn't find this to be much other than durdling until you can assemble the combo with protection (maybe Pact of Negation, maybe something else). Heavy redundancy in the combo pieces makes up for the lack of filtering.
Affinity: I like this one. It's pretty cerebral for an aggro deck. You can get a lot of mileage out of animating a Nexus because of how the Affinity or "Nim" mechanics work and that isn't always obvious. And the combat math with Ravagers, Platings, and Shrapnel Blast can usually be interesting. If I wasn't so terrified of losing money with a swing of the banhammer, I'd probably enter more seriously into Modern with this deck.
B/W Tokens: While I think SpikeyMikey did a great job creating/shaping this deck, I don't get the same mental workout playing the deck as he did building it. I play token spells, play anthem effects, and try and kill the opponent without overextending into a Firespout or Jund Charm. Pretty simple play, but I do think that you have flexibility to tweak the deck to a specific metagame, and that could be very fun for some people.
Living End/Restore Balance: These decks are kinda cool from a design perspective (I love the fact that Borderposts and horrible Alara limited fodder make up the backbone of these decks), but they're pretty straightforward, especially Living End. You do the same stuff every time, and it never really becomes a whole different situation like games 2&3 with Dredge does. Your deck just sucks if they have hate.
I haven't played, but am somewhat interested in Pod, Death Cloud, and Aggro Loam...but no Goyfs and no Cashseizes, among other things, really limit my ability to play some of those.
I'm no Modern master, but I'm struggling to find something I really like out of it. It doesn't have what I like that Legacy does. It's probably is great for people interested in brewing decks, tweaking for the meta, and/or winning PTQs, but for people like myself who want to pick up a deck and know that I can have it for awhile and gain appreciable skill with it over time, who want to play decks that are wildly different from "normal" Magic, and who played in seasons not covered by the new card face that have a lot of nostalgia...well, Modern isn't offering much. I know it could be a great format if Wizards got their acts in gear, but so could every single Standard season, and we all know how most of those have ended up lately.You just really haven't looked at the format much, but that's what I get from 95% of the people on these forums.
I hate attacking people online, but I'll do it anyway.
Don't be an idiot. Breaking the reserve list was the *only* way to salvage Legacy. If that had happened, there would be no Modern. There would be Vintage, Legacy, Standard and Limited. That's it.
And also, if SCG cuts support for Legacy overnigh, it will DESTROY the values of Legacy cards. SCG put Legacy on the map, and if I were them, pretty soon I'd be considering alternating weekends between Modern and Legacy, for example. Phase it out gradually.
I can understand your logic, but here is the flaw. Much like GameStop, Starcity sells new product, but their bread and butter is the secondary market. With that in mind, for what reason would SCG willfully choose to strangle off the market for half of their total inventory? SCG tourneys drive demand for Legacy in the states, and as long as there is demand, they can keep buying Wastelands at $30 a piece and selling them for $50 (semi-hypothetical amounts). At the same time, WotC is more than happy to support Modern with reprintable cards and a shallower card pool which lends itself to adopting newer cards much more readily. The demand for modern isn't something that SCG has to worry about fostering just yet, and they're happy to sell confidants for $40 without putting any effort into the format. Even if revised duals hit $500 for an Underground Sea, SCG would be just as happy to buy it for $350.
Not a lot of people out there willing to spend $10k on a manabase, but I get what you're saying.
Anyway, in my humble opinion, Legacy is getting close, or is at, a ceiling for growth. Let's wee what happens in the next 12 months or so.
Why would that be the end for Legacy?
There was a great interview with Forsythe a year ago or so (I'll try to find a link), after their statement that the Reserved list is here to stay. Basically what he said is that with Legacy there will be a point when the plateau of format accessibility is reached, but that this doesn't mean the end of the world. People will still play Legacy, it's not like everyone will cash out, and when one does - there will be others waiting in line to buy his cards up. Great example of this scenario is SCG - over the last few years they had more than a few special occasions where they lowered the prices of their Legacy stock, simply because there were no takers at an overinflated price. Last one was just a month or two ago for lots of old duals, and they all ended in players hands.
Reserved list is indeed the boogeyman of our format, but that doesn't mean that people will stop playing Brainstorms and Force of Wills. This is true regardless of how many alderon666's or Mr.C's (who both don't play Legacy) show up on the Source forum and start spreading negativity.
Btw, there are numerous high profile Legacy tournaments all over Europe that are getting more and more players every year, and this doesn't just go for Bazaar of Moxen (France) or Ovino (Italy). Neither of those are supported by either Wizards nor SCG.
For what it's worth, I think the SCG tournament circuit is much more important in America than Wizards' support because of how often the events are held. That's why a big reason why Legacy is doing so much better right now, even though Wizards offers more GPs and PTs in the Modern format.
While I don't see any reason for them to do so at least in the foreseeable future, I do agree that if SCG did ever decide to change to Modern, it would hurt this format in America. But it would still survive, just with less high-profile events, it certainly wouldn't die like some people are suggesting (as though they are hoping for it because they're somehow invested in Legacy dying because they already cashed out or something).
I admit, there are a few actually competitive decks that can get by without duals. Such as Goblins, Dredge, Merfolk and on a good day, D&T and Belcher. The majority of decks you listed are tier 1.5/2 decks that people will play as pet decks.
But let me return to price for a bit. Most of those decks, competitive or not, are still really expensive! So you aren't even saving much money by going for a strategy without dual lands, except in a few cases. And it does turn off new players that they can't build the decks they see tearing up SCG or Grand Prix. I had White Stax, Dredge, Aggro-Loam, Zoo, Enchantress, Dragon Stompy, Junk and The Gate all built at some point or the other over the past 3 years (many of the shells overlap). Right now I'm playing: Miracle Top and Maverick. Because at some point I want to play decks that actually win stuff more consistently, even if I greatly enjoy those tier 1.5/2 decks. Now that I have 4x Tundra 2x U Sea 2x Trop and playsets of blue fetches and FoW, the number of relevant decks I can build has gone up by a lot.
Let me bring up another point: In addition to the duals and certain other reserved list cards, you have Wasteland and FoW as huge bottlenecks. Particularly Wasteland. Both are not on the reserved list, and if Wizards really wanted to help out Legacy, they would have introduced additional supply of these cards at the least. They haven't, except for a tiny # of Judge Promo Wastelands which doesn't count due to being so tiny.
Maybe, but people don't get passionately into a format to play... Burn.dec. And they don't stick with it out of a continuing love for all the subtleties of Burn. Well, not very many people, anyway- sure, Pat Sullivan might love it.It feels great to roll on a $1000+ deck with your $100 burn deck.
Last edited by FieryBalrog; 10-19-2012 at 12:30 PM.
Bardo, Site AdminNowhere do you see: Efficient Answers to Other Cards. Force and MMS will never be banned. Deal.
I don't play Legacy because:
When I lived in Vancouver, there was a once a month tournament that started 5pm on a work day.
and
A casual tournament every Tuesday that I also could not make it to due to work.
Now that I live in Winnipeg, I went to a Legacy tournament that had six people. A couple of stores here run Modern with consistent turnout.
Lastly, look at my join date, I've been registered here 5 years longer than you, and I remember lurking here when T1.5 was butchered to create Legacy, and all the drama surrounding that.
I love Legacy as a format, and I would rather it not die. But, sooner rather than later people will be completely priced out of the format, and that will be that. I'm a realist, sorry if that annoys you.
Edit: And also, just to be clear, people don't want to play "the budget deck" which may or may not be good. People want to play the "best deck", and when that costs a few thousand dollars, it just turns people away from the format.
Disclaimer: I have pretty much a one of each magic card, minus ABU and some FBB. I probably have a playset of duals still, even after cashing out. I don't give a damn if prices tank tomorrow. That's not the point.
Not that anyone cares, but one of the primary reasons I stay away from threads like these is in large part due to the excessive trolling, remarkably uneducated comments and whirlwhind of insults being hurled at people all over the place. It makes for a disinteresting read and, in a small way, makes me sad that as a community we can't share ideas collectively without bashing each others' thoughts and insulting each others' integrity.
If anything, this will be the downfall of Legacy: a community that cannot work together on common ground to build, maintain and support a format without having to rely on Wizards and Star City itself. The format did just fine before them, and it will continue to do so in the future. Many of us nurtured this format from the ground up, and it should continue to be that way...
...and respected as such.
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