All B/R update speculation.

[FieryBalrog]

Look at Decks like 12-Post, Rock or Nit Fic ... they use the colorless/green Manipulation with success. Ask my testing Partner about Sylvan Library in our test-suit-Zoo: past Turn 4 I near always draw the fucking 3 cards to Finish him with burn. And what is tournament-Reality? A 1-off. Seriously? is there any better Card to drop on Turn 3?

This sort of post is my favorite. How about you start proving that Sylvan Library is so amazing? (it's decent but slow, and why play it when you can just play blue instead)?

People just throw stuff out there, like "yeah, non-blue sucks because everyone sucks at this game and they don't play cards A, B and C." As if they have this sophisticated secret knowledge that the plebs just don't have which will make non-blue decks amazing. You hear it all the time: "Hymn is soooo underplayed". No it isn't, Hymn just isn't that good, even if it SHOULD be good, intheory.

[sdematt]

Again, it depends on the deck you're running Hymn is good in certain matchups, but right now, I don't want it all the time, so I play it in the board.

-Matt

[kiblast]

Play Brainstorm correctly and learn its real power

I agree with him up to a certain point. You can play Bs istant speed to look for quick answers to things you need to answer immediately (Snt, AdN) or in response to a discard spell, obviously. But lots of times Brainstorm is far better and critically more effective if played in your first main phase, and possibly as late as possible in the gamestate and with a shuffle effect ready. Is all about the timing. Every Brainstorm you draw has a perfect timing to be played, sometimes needs to be played straight away, sometimes you can afford keeping it in your hand for few turns, allowing your Bs to slowly increase its effectiveness, just by not casting it. And lots of times has happened to me that I was waiting for the timing to cast Bs, and there were no con's in casting it in your first main phase, whereas playing it eot was a mistake. I feel lots of players misplay Brainstorm eot' ing it too much. Just because they can, just because it's an istant. The more you wait the stronger it gets (again, if you can afford to wait). Sometimes waiting just one more draw step makes the difference. Luckily lots of players misplay Brainstorm, so we can still have it in the format!

[Koby]

I fully agree with this, Sylvan Library is soooo criminally underplayed...

I believe my exact conversation with Todd Anderson has been something like this:

Me: "You play 8 cantrips in RUG because it's the nutter butter good, yes?"
TA: "why of course"
Me: "so why are you only playing 1 Sylvan Library in Maverick?"
TA: "because I don't want to draw both of them"
...

Yes, he really is that dumb.

[Lemnear]

If Brainstorm would be banned, decks playing 4 Brainstorm and 2-4 Ponder would likely switch to 4 Ponder and 2-4 Preordain because card selection plays a central role in these decks; decks playing 4 Brainstorm and no other cantrips would drop cantrips, or even drops blue, because their threat density is high. The 4-Brainstorm only decks play Brainstorm not because they really need card selection, but Brainstorm is such a good value card, even if printed as a Sorcery. Ponder, even printed as an Instant, would not be present in 4-Brainstorm only decks.

Comparing Brainstorm with Mirri's Guile is pointless, because the latter is card-disadvantage. Sylvan Library and Top cost at least 2 mana to have a Brainstorm effect. Cantrips such as Ancient Stirring see some plays because they are on par with Brainstorms in the right decks, but can not be splashed into most decks. If blue mages will miss Brainstorm with Ponders and Preordains at their disposal, why would other mages play cards worse than Ponder or Preordain? The repetitive effects from Guile, Library and Top are good in long games, but far worse than a cantrip for early-game strategies.

WotC has learned their lessons from Ponder and Preordain in Modern, and is thus unlikely to print future cantrips more powerful than Preordain. Legacy would be more (colour) balanced if Brainstorm would be banned, because decks surviving on card selections (Combo, greed tempo decks) would be weakened, while decks surviving on threat density would have more business than the big value card. Ponder and Preordain, while very efficient and powerful, are far from the brokenness of Brainstorm.

My experience is: Either you build your Deck around a core of Force of Will and Brainstorm in which case you Need to replace the brainstorm to remain the Blue-count somehow or you run a combo deck with 8+ cantrips which would just switch cantrips like modern combo decks did. Ergo, I have no idea what are these 4-brainstorm only decks looks like you are talking about.

The comparison between Brainstorm and the cards named are off. The pure claim that brainstorm is plain better because it's a initial mana cheaper, while ignoring the repeatable effects of Library/Top, is very questionable. I mentioned those as options to enable Library Manipulation for non-blue decks which is powerful and underplayed atm.


@FieryBalrog

I need to prove the power of Library? You even quote an example! Most non-blue Decks in our established forum abuse the named manipulation but in field I see nothing than flipping cards off the library/tables.

[Fizzeler]

I believe my exact conversation with Todd Anderson has been something like this:

Me: "You play 8 cantrips in RUG because it's the nutter butter good, yes?"
TA: "why of course"
Me: "so why are you only playing 1 Sylvan Library in Maverick?"
TA: "because I don't want to draw both of them"
...

Yes, he really is that dumb.

lol

I still think Brainstorm is fine, yes it is extremely powerful, but so is Land Tax > Scroll Rack which lets you ancestral every turn and that is barely playable

I still say unban Worldgorger Dragon, just cause the person to get a game loss if they try to intentionally draw the game with it

[FieryBalrog]

I believe my exact conversation with Todd Anderson has been something like this:

Me: "You play 8 cantrips in RUG because it's the nutter butter good, yes?"
TA: "why of course"
Me: "so why are you only playing 1 Sylvan Library in Maverick?"
TA: "because I don't want to draw both of them"
...

Yes, he really is that dumb.

Sylvan Library isn't close to as good as a cantrip like BS/Ponder. I agree 1 is dumb, but 2 is fine, and more than that is pretty questionable, as it's much worse in multiples than the cantrips are. More than just that, spending your fundamental turn 2 setting up a card selection that takes effect a full turn from now is what is really questionable in a format that really doesn't reward the long-term advantages of Library vs the immediate power of Brainstorm (if Sylvan Library cost G instead of 1G, we wouldn't be having this conversation). For immediate effect, BS is vastly more powerful and that is what matters in Legacy.

Library's advantage is all in the long-term for a variety of reasons. It doesn't replace itself unless you spend 4 life, and even then it will be a full turn later. It doesn't let you trade bad cards in hand for great cards on top of your library for no life cost. It doesn't allow you to operate as an instant. It's not nearly as flexible. It does let you grind out little advantages turn after turn and allow you to get an extra card or two if you have a lot of life to spend (you need 8 life just to come ahead 1 card).

The absolute best place to have Library when playing Mav is vs UW Miracles or a similar deck. That's when you can really ride its strength. The games go long, they're about grinding advantage, and there is very little pressure on your life total, so it's great to spend your turn 2 setting up a grindy advantage card for the rest of the game.

[Koby]

I'm not going to get into the minutia of when and how Sylvan Library excels because this is not the place to discuss it. The point of the reference is that players still think of Brainstorm and Ponder as being gifts to Legacy without recognizing that their effect on card quality combined with cheap mana cost are what makes them effective. Sylvan and Top provide similar functions in the non-blue decks but aren't as universally recognized as important.

[rufus]

...
I still say unban Worldgorger Dragon, just cause the person to get a game loss if they try to intentionally draw the game with it

There's a certain inconsistency between manually looping for a draw, and deliberately causing a passive loop, but would bolting a mulldrifter in response to worldgorger reanimation also count as causing a draw?

[LennonMarx]

No, at some point the Animate Dead would have to target the other creature card in a graveyard. The draw scenario only plays out if WGD is the only legal target in any graveyard.

[FieryBalrog]

I'm not going to get into the minutia of when and how Sylvan Library excels because this is not the place to discuss it. The point of the reference is that players still think of Brainstorm and Ponder as being gifts to Legacy without recognizing that their effect on card quality combined with cheap mana cost are what makes them effective. Sylvan and Top provide similar functions in the non-blue decks but aren't as universally recognized as important.

Top is basically universally recognized as an important card.

Sylvan Library isn't universally recognized as important because it doesn't serve that exact function and isn't as good in this format. Not because people are dumb.

Brainstorm is a pillar of the format. Top is too. Library isn't, and it's for a reason.

[Lemnear]

Brainstorm is a pillar of the format. Top is too. Library isn't, and it's for a reason.

Being green? Joke

Library isn't a turn 2 play, more like a midgame card turn 4 to remain pressure once you run out of gas. This is completely different from the purpose of cards like brainstorm in Combo decks but they share the ability to manipulate your Library which is my point in extend: Library Manipulation in non-blue decks directly affects their viability.

People play 4 Thalia in Maverick and 4 Sensei's Divining Top/ 4 Counterbalance in UW Control ... All those cards are crap in multiples. However, players want to draw them in every game. Therefore running only a single Library in a Green based deck that can profit from "reach" is nonsense imo. Handling it like a legendary permament and running 2-3 seem much accurate in decks like Rock and Maverick.

[FieryBalrog]

Being green? Joke

Library isn't a turn 2 play, more like a midgame card turn 4 to remain pressure once you run out of gas. This is completely different from the purpose of cards like brainstorm in Combo decks but they share the ability to manipulate your Library which is my point in extend: Library Manipulation in non-blue decks directly affects their viability.

People play 4 Thalia in Maverick and 4 Sensei's Divining Top/ 4 Counterbalance in UW Control ... All those cards are crap in multiples. However, players want to draw them in every game. Therefore running only a single Library in a Green based deck that can profit from "reach" is nonsense imo. Handling it like a legendary permament and running 2-3 seem much accurate in decks like Rock and Maverick.

I said that myself (run 2, not 1)... it doesn't mean Library is "criminally underplayed" like someone said. A specific example of one dude (Todd Anderson) who ran 1 Library instead of 2 is hardly an example of how players in general are too foolish to play Library properly...

Library Manipulation in non-blue decks directly affects their viability.

People already know that and play these cards in fairly appropriate numbers (and it's not good enough to free people from reliance on a blue shell). I don't get why you think the format needs to "learn" these things.

[tsabo_tavoc]

My experience is: Either you build your Deck around a core of Force of Will and Brainstorm in which case you Need to replace the brainstorm to remain the Blue-count somehow or you run a combo deck with 8+ cantrips which would just switch cantrips like modern combo decks did. Ergo, I have no idea what are these 4-brainstorm only decks looks like you are talking about.

The comparison between Brainstorm and the cards named are off. The pure claim that brainstorm is plain better because it's a initial mana cheaper, while ignoring the repeatable effects of Library/Top, is very questionable. I mentioned those as options to enable Library Manipulation for non-blue decks which is powerful and underplayed atm.

I did acknowledge the repetitive effects of Guile, Library and Top in my original post, and stated that they are good for slower decks, and worse for aggresive and combo decks, where Brainstorm shines. I play either Library or Top in my Control decks, and there is no question how powerful they are. They are not as ubiquitos as Brainstorm because they are bad for fast combo decks, or greed tempo decks. When people continue to Reanimate-Griselbrand, Dark Ritual-Ad Nauseum, or Stifle-Wasteland you, how much breathing place is there for Library and Top? Library and Top bring more library manipulation during the course of a longer game, but Brainstorm gives immediate value at an efficient cost. Library and Top make decks consistent at the cost of constant resource expenditures, whereas Brainstorm gives you three cards for one blue. Library and Top are very good, but Brainstorm is broken. Non-blue players have plenty of options for library selection, and Library and Top do see a lot of play, but they can not match the brokenness of Brianstorm.

There are a few 4-Brainstorm only decks that do not have Force of Will, such as BGu Nic-Fit. Banning Brainstorm would motivate them leaving blue, not replacing with Ponder. There are a few 4-Brainstorm only decks that have 4 Force of Wills and are low on blue cards (~20), like GWU Maverick (Bant Aggro). Banning Brainstorm would motivate them replacing FOW by Spell Pierce, or leaving blue, not replacing Brainstorm with Ponder.

[Koby]

I said that myself (run 2, not 1)... it doesn't mean Library is "criminally underplayed" like someone said. A specific example of one dude (Todd Anderson) who ran 1 Library instead of 2 is hardly an example of how players in general are too foolish to play Library properly...

Yet, people continue to utilize Sylvan Library as though it's Legendary and continue to run a singleton copy:
List of recent Legacy decks utilizing Sylvan Library
The first deck to play more than one copy of Sylvan Library is Jack Colwell, who literally took my Maverick list and played it. Anyways, we're splitting hairs here.

Brainstorm is played because it provides immediate effects. This is enough to win games. End of story.
If Legacy were to Ban Brainstorm, then it would be a completely different format. I think what would benefit Legacy greatly right now are ways to punish shuffling your library.

Imagine Psychogenic Probe but with a tougher punishment and/or cheaper cost. Maybe "RR Enchantment - Players cannot search library"

[Lemnear]

I said that myself (run 2, not 1)... it doesn't mean Library is "criminally underplayed" like someone said. A specific example of one dude (Todd Anderson) who ran 1 Library instead of 2 is hardly an example of how players in general are too foolish to play Library properly...



People already know that and play these cards in fairly appropriate numbers (and it's not good enough to free people from reliance on a blue shell). I don't get why you think the format needs to "learn" these things.

I didn't bring up Todd. I believe the "reliance on a blue shell" for library manipulation only applies here for combo decks. There is no forced reason to splash blue for that mentioned purpose if your decks goal isn't to win during the first 3-4 turns.

To tag Library as "criminally underplayed" appears correct in terms of todays "midrange" decks like Zoo, Maverick, Rock, Team America, Nit Fic, 12-post, etc.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I didn't bring up Todd. I believe the "reliance on a blue shell" for library manipulation only applies here for combo decks. There is no forced reason to splash blue for that mentioned purpose if your decks goal isn't to win during the first 3-4 turns.

To tag Library as "criminally underplayed" appears correct in terms of todays "midrange" decks like Zoo, Maverick, Rock, Team America, Nit Fic, 12-post, etc.

No, Library is not underplayed in those decks. Zoo and Mavs play Library, between 1 and 3 copies. Some blue Zoo plays a Guile instead for the cheaper mana. Library is not a 4-of in those decks because it does not replace itself, and unless the creatures, Library is a tempo sink. Zoo and Mavs have enough creatures on the table early on and save life to capitalise the draw from Library. This is not the case for Rock, TA, Nic Fit, and 12-post. Aggroish Rock and TA do play Library, but the controllish versions (fewer creatures) can not afford playing it. Rock plays Top and Dark Confidant, whereas TA plays Dark Confidant or Jace, and Library is not as good in the controllish versions. Nic Fit and 12-post play Top, and they struggle to stabilise and simply can not afford Library while Top replaces itself at worst.

In conclusion, Library is not present in hyper-aggresive decks because of 2 mana (Brainstorm is better), and not present in controlling decks because of 4 life per card (Top is better). Some midrange decks really benefit from it, but a 4-of is rarely a good idea. Library helps your mid-game, but does not help your surviving the early game, nor does it dominate the late game as good as Top.

[Gui]

Not true. Library isn't as much played as Brainstorm just because it doesn't have Awesome (This card has symbols and can be pitched for FoW.)

EDIT: Despite the Troll, if you think about it, if Library was blue, it would instantly see more play, even because the useless copies would then be pitched for FoW, or fetched away (weird expression oO).

[tsabo_tavoc]

Not true. Library isn't as much played as Brainstorm just because it doesn't have Awesome (This card has symbols and can be pitched for FoW.)

EDIT: Despite the Troll, if you think about it, if Library was blue, it would instantly see more play, even because the useless copies would then be pitched for FoW, or fetched away (weird expression oO).

The Awesome keyword does contribute to Brainstorm's success, but its status being the best Legacy card comes from its converted mana cost. Add to Brainstorm's cost, we get a fair card, about as good as Impulse. Subtract from Library's cost, it would become an insanely powerful card, if not throning over other Legacy cards. The effect of Library is no worse than Brainstorm, that is why it sees more play than Impulse. The doubled mana cost is the real deal, 1-mana and 2-mana cards are from different worlds. Making Library 1U would make it more prevalent, but still a league behind Brainstorm.

[FieryBalrog]

The Awesome keyword does contribute to Brainstorm's success, but its status being the best Legacy card comes from its converted mana cost. Add to Brainstorm's cost, we get a fair card, about as good as Impulse. Subtract from Library's cost, it would become an insanely powerful card, if not throning over other Legacy cards. The effect of Library is no worse than Brainstorm, that is why it sees more play than Impulse. The doubled mana cost is the real deal, 1-mana and 2-mana cards are from different worlds. Making Library 1U would make it more prevalent, but still a league behind Brainstorm.

Yup, I agree completely... as I said up there in a previous post:
"More than just that, spending your fundamental turn 2 setting up a card selection that takes effect a full turn from now is what is really questionable in a format that really doesn't reward the long-term advantages of Library vs the immediate power of Brainstorm (if Sylvan Library cost G instead of 1G, we wouldn't be having this conversation)"

People still underestimate the power of Brainstorm, even after it became widely known as "the best card in Vintage", even after years of dominance in Legacy... it's like, "hey, it's not Ancestral Recall, so it's fair". Also, it's a fun card to play, so people are very attached to it.