[Deck] Goblins

[Dice_Box]

Blue splash? interesting... also kinda iffy.

I can see the merits as two fold.

First he only played one card that kills early combo, letting him race for the win. I really like the idea, a counter in a goblin deck is something you would not expect. I like Chalice but I can see where Pierce can be useful too.

Second is the WTF moment when you drop a Volcanic Island. The mental meltdown that that can cause. Because it is so strange to see, "Island, Lackey turn" that no one is going to have a clue what he is going to pull from that deck. I mean what are you going to think of? Flectomancer maybe but nothing jumps right to mind. It is an interesting play. I like it.

[Avatara]

We don't know if the Spell Pierces actually made him win any games. (or if they are the reason why he placed first at all)

[Dice_Box]

We don't know if the Spell Pierces actually made him win any games. (or if they are the reason why he placed first at all)

Granted. I also doubt one card would have won him the placing. I know the man has much more skill at the competitive level than myself so that would help him most. I see the change up as being a unique twist on the deck though and I would be interested to know how useful it was for him.

I still have to say I think the WTF role of playing blue in a Goblin deck should not be overlooked. It really is a head spin. Though we have decks splashing all the other colours so I guess it was a matter of time before blue got the same treatment.

[goblinsplayer]

Just wondering, how good is sparksmith in goblins?

[ScatmanX]

I'll be playing in SCG Milwaukee tomorrow. Wish me luck! Naturally I'll be rocking Goblins. Hopefully I get good MUs and good draws.

Good Luck!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Good Luck!

Link

Looks like he's doing very well going into round 5.
There's only 1 Jonathan W at the tournament and he's on table 3 in the link above. I'm assuming that's JRW!

[jrw1985]

Link

Looks like he's doing very well going into round 5.
There's only 1 Jonathan W at the tournament and he's on table 3 in the link above. I'm assuming that's JRW!

That is I. Just picked up my first loss against Shardless BUG. 4-1. We'll see if I can turn it around.

[jrw1985]

I'm 7-1 right now, positioned to draw into top 8!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Good luck Jon!

Edit: 10th out of 279! Great job!
Can't wait to read your report!!

[Dice_Box]

Top 8? Nice. Let us know how it all turns out.

[L10]

Congrats Jon with your 7-2, barely missing the top 8. That's a really good showing. I think we will all be looking forward to your report. The RUG Cascade deck looks like a rough match-up.

[magicmerl]

Gobolord, I was just going through the OP again (shamelessly looking to see if my 1st place finish had a link there), and I have to say how impressed I am with the primer. The idea of the 'core' is one that I am really settling on (although I think that 4 Gempalm Incinerators are probably core as well).

In the 'flex' section there's almost room for two different tiers: Cards you almost certainly should play (4 Gempalms, Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter) and more flexible cards (MWM, Thalia, TSH/Scrapper, Chieftain, Krenko, Tarfire/Bolt etc).

However, this bit I have a quibble with:

Since May 2012 Cavern of Souls is considered an auto-include in every Goblin-decklist. However, as yet there is no consensus about the right number. When creating decklists with many copies of Cavern of Souls we should be cautious about the number of non-creature-goblin-cards that require colored mana like Lightning Bolt, Warren Weirding and Gempalm Incinerator.

The most common splash-colors for Gobs are Black and Green.

I think that the consensus number of Caverns is 4. And the most common splash colour is white, or white-green.

And I'm not sure that it's fair to categorise Oblivion Ring as a 'bad' card, since while it does less vs Show and Tell than Angel of Despair and CitR do, it's more flexible since it can be used as enchantment removal vs Energy Field and Moat as well.

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).

Is it worth talking about the two different strategic roles goblins can occupy? i.e. As a midrange deck feasting on aggro decks (where removal spells are great in the flex slots) and as a tempo (or aggro-control) deck using Ports and Thalias to disrupt the opponent while basically any crappy little goblin will do as a win condition. That would explain to me some of the crosstalk that there's been about removal spells vs Thalia/ports, when the two camps are trying to optimise two different builds that feast on different parts of the metagame. Does that make sense?

[Avatara]

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).

Maybe you can enlighten us with some play test data on why those cards are bad?

[Dice_Box]

Quick question.

I am going to play my first game in a while tomorrow and do not know the Meta at the shop I am going to. My question, Splash green and play Krosan Grip or stay mono red and play only a single Tuktuk Scrapper?

[GoboLord]

Gobolord, I was just going through the OP again (shamelessly looking to see if my 1st place finish had a link there), and I have to say how impressed I am with the primer. The idea of the 'core' is one that I am really settling on (although I think that 4 Gempalm Incinerators are probably core as well).

In the 'flex' section there's almost room for two different tiers: Cards you almost certainly should play (4 Gempalms, Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter) and more flexible cards (MWM, Thalia, TSH/Scrapper, Chieftain, Krenko, Tarfire/Bolt etc).

However, this bit I have a quibble with:

I think that the consensus number of Caverns is 4. And the most common splash colour is white, or white-green.

And I'm not sure that it's fair to categorise Oblivion Ring as a 'bad' card, since while it does less vs Show and Tell than Angel of Despair and CitR do, it's more flexible since it can be used as enchantment removal vs Energy Field and Moat as well.

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).

Is it worth talking about the two different strategic roles goblins can occupy? i.e. As a midrange deck feasting on aggro decks (where removal spells are great in the flex slots) and as a tempo (or aggro-control) deck using Ports and Thalias to disrupt the opponent while basically any crappy little goblin will do as a win condition. That would explain to me some of the crosstalk that there's been about removal spells vs Thalia/ports, when the two camps are trying to optimise two different builds that feast on different parts of the metagame. Does that make sense?

It's always nice for me to get some feedback on the opening post, since I spend a considerable amount of time on upating it. So, for you questions/suggestions:

* Cavern of Souls is indeed an auto-4-off. I will change that.
* apparently the most common splash colors change from time to time. I will just leave that part out
* I will not re-work the "flex" cards section, because I don't agree with you on this "two-tier" system. I get the idea, but I don't think that cards can be categorized that easily.
* I think Vial Goblins can always play several strategic roles - and that doesn't depend on how many spotremval or Rishadan Ports you run. I have to dismiss this idea too, because it wouldn't capture the idea of Vial Goblins properly. As an example: I like to play a higher number of removal spells in combination with 4 Rishadan Ports, because that opens up some good lines of tempo-plays, (like when you got few dudes and you won't let your opponent cast spells anymore), while it sometimes also enables you to play a control-role (you buy some turns for your Vial, while tapping your oponent out and killing his dudes with spotremoval). As you can see: things aren't that simply.
* I know what Oblivion RIng can do and why some people think it's a good card. However, we've had this discussion and I don't want to start it all over again. Besides: the opening post is colored with some personal views of mine (although I try to keep my writings as objectively as possible). This means that there will always be phrases and statements that people disagree with (I tend to disagree with my past writings too). This means: if you find Oblivion Ring good enough to include it in your SB, then please do so. In fact, I won't stop anybody who does so - it's just that I have come to the the conclusion that it's always better to run Confusion in the Rank or Angel of Despair instead. I'm also not willing to explain why I put some card on the list of "bad cardchoices". After all the primer should give you a general idea of what Vial Goblins can and can't do. It's not the holy bible of Goblins...
(sorry if that last part sounds a little enraged. It isn't meant to sound that way)


@ Dice_Box: Mono Red, please!

[magicmerl]

Maybe you can enlighten us with some play test data on why those cards are bad?

I was saying that everything *but* those cards were bad.... Anyway, I'm aware I was being a bit cheeky dismissing a whole list without giving reasons. tbh the only card that I've actually played on the tbt list is Lightning Crafter, which was ok, but I found it to be a 'win more' card. Occasionally it would win on the spot in conjunction with KikiJiki, but most of the time when it was good, most anything else would have been good enough too.

I only have room for the absolute minimum of goblins that cost more than 2: 2 SGC, 4 Ringleaders, 4 Matrons, 4 Warchief plus one (marginal) Sharpshooter to taste. Everything else has to be cheaper than 3 mana to make the cut for me.

I like to play a higher number of removal spells in combination with 4 Rishadan Ports, because that opens up some good lines of tempo-plays

Actually, I think that running removal spells instead of cheap early goblins (which are the cards the removals are competing for slots with) is kinda the opposite of a tempo-play, unless you are specifically meaning getting a lackey through after burning their blocker. I'm not a big fan of this line of play strategically, because in my experience the way most opponents protect themselves from lackey is by killing him. Then you're left with a crappy burn spell in your hand that will let you go 1-for-1 with the opponents creature at best. If they have a blocker for early lackey, I'm fine with vomiting goblins onto the table for a few turns while we have a standoff. Eventually we can swarm them. Running a burn spell to 'protect' lackey seems like running Negate (or Essence Scatter) in a control deck in standard. Sometimes they ask a different question that you didn't come prepared to answer.

I am going to play my first game in a while tomorrow and do not know the Meta at the shop I am going to. My question, Splash green and play Krosan Grip or stay mono red and play only a single Tuktuk Scrapper?

I think that mono-red is always a good baseline to start with. It's only once you know the weaknesses of mono-R that you need to turn to other colours. I think getting experience with the 'core' deck is good. Krosan Grip and TSH/Tuktuk Scrapper are marginal choices anyway, so it's not like you are changing the deck massively with the tweaks. The players/decks at my LGS that I want to be most prepared for are all combo decks, hence my adoration of Thalia.

[Dice_Box]

Lightning Crafter, which was ok, but I found it to be a 'win more' card. Occasionally it would win on the spot in conjunction with KikiJiki, but most of the time when it was good, most anything else would have been good enough too.


The players/decks at my LGS that I want to be most prepared for are all combo decks, hence my adoration of Thalia.

I see LC as a kind of spot removal. If you have enough lords that give haste in your deck, then you can summon it with a marton, play it, champion out the marton and hit something. Then when it dies you get your matron back and go looking for something else you may need. It is a niche card but worth being played as a one off. It is also a better problem solver than Kreko is.

Also why do you run Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst? Is it the cheat ability of vial to get around counters or is there another reason? I just can't afford to buy more duel lands if there is not a really good reason and I need to stop combo.

[jrw1985]

Good luck Jon!

Edit: 10th out of 279! Great job!
Can't wait to read your report!!

Top 8? Nice. Let us know how it all turns out.

Congrats Jon with your 7-2, barely missing the top 8. That's a really good showing. I think we will all be looking forward to your report. The RUG Cascade deck looks like a rough match-up.

Thanks guys! It was pretty disappointing missing Top 8. My round 9 opponent (Julio Fontanez, 5th) couldn't draw in so we had to play it out. It turns out he was running a list that was just a fucking nightmare. His list ran Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, 8 cascade creatures, and Punishing Fire, so he pretty much put a collosal beating on me. I also kept a loose hand G1 and mulled to a slow 6 G2 and couldn't draw any relevant hate (not that it would have mattered, he got too far ahead too quickly). So I got kinda dream-crushed, forced out of top-8 instead of being able to draw in.

I'll write a real report tomorrow I think.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks guys! It was pretty disappointing missing Top 8. My round 9 opponent (Julio Fontanez, 5th) couldn't draw in so we had to play it out. It turns out he was running a list that was just a fucking nightmare. His list ran Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, 8 cascade creatures, and Punishing Fire, so he pretty much put a collosal beating on me. I also kept a loose hand G1 and mulled to a slow 6 G2 and couldn't draw any relevant hate (not that it would have mattered, he got too far ahead too quickly). So I got kinda dream-crushed, forced out of top-8 instead of being able to draw in.

I'll write a real report tomorrow I think.

Still, awesome show! Congratz!
can't wait to read the report, and thoughts on decklist/matches.

[magicmerl]

I see LC as a kind of spot removal. If you have enough lords that give haste in your deck, then you can summon it with a marton, play it, champion out the marton and hit something. Then when it dies you get your matron back and go looking for something else you may need. It is a niche card but worth being played as a one off. It is also a better problem solver than Kreko is.

I was running KikiJiki, but cut him for Krenko when Krenko came out (and have recently cut Krenko for the 2nd SGC). I think that removal is too prevalent for running a 'cute' card like KikiJiki that cares about your opponents removal spells. I want to play my goblins and watch them die, then play some more. I don't want to care about my goblins in play :)

Also why do you run Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst? Is it the cheat ability of vial to get around counters or is there another reason? I just can't afford to buy more duel lands if there is not a really good reason and I need to stop combo.

There are several reasons Thalia is just flat out better than Thorn of Amethyst, despite them looking like the same card.
1. As you say, Aether Vial
2. Cavern of Souls also makes Thalia uncounterable, whereas Thorn can be countered pretty easily
3. Thalia is actually a clock while they do nothing

I think if you are looking for a storm hoser in mono-R then Mindbreak Trap is a better option.