All B/R update speculation.

[clavio]

Someone else decided to criticize said deck based on 2 cards that he knows are in it.

Then post the rest of your awful pile so we can make fun of the rest of the deck too.

[lordofthepit]

"His deck isn't on the tier 1 list I get my decklists from, we must flame him relentlessly just in case he's on to something!!"

You're entitled to your own opinions, but if you're going to confuse the results of Standard events from over two years ago as those of "recent Legacy events", people are going to believe that you don't have a solid grasp on the format. If you continue making sweeping statements about the format which are contrary to the observations of everyone else, then it's natural that people will dismiss your opinions as uninformed or as trolling.

[Vandalize]

What if I told you this thread is about BANNED AND RESTRICED spectulation, and not about whether Prison decks are good or not?

Since the format is kinda healthy, I doubt anything will get banned in the near future. Unbans seems more likely.

Earthcraft: Infinite Squirrel token combo is really not working in Legacy anytime soon. This could find a home in Elves, but I'm not entirely sure. Probably a safe unban.

Mind Twist: Hymn to Tourach already has an edge over this in early game. The only problem is that this could very well fit in any 3-color control deck without hurting the manabase. Moreover, with all those Spell Pierces/Dazes and mana denial running around, I doubt people will make more value than Hymn out of this card. Probably safe unban.

Black Vise: This one is really hard to tell. It would be a perfect fit in MUD. I, personally think that it wouldn't impact Legacy too much, because it's such a fast format and almost every deck is in topdeck mode in turn 5~6. Risky unban.

Frantic Search: This card has only one home, High Tide based combo. It would significantly speed up their combo, but these decks are really strugling in today's meta, or people just prefer to play Show and Tell. At best, it could make High Tide become tier 1. Probably safe unban.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Oh man, when does school start back up?

[Megadeus]

Unfortunately this week for me :(

Legacy is fine as is. I hate Derpy SnT strategies, but everyone hates something. Nothing is OP and Unbanning anything like Earthcraft or Black Vise or something I doubt would matter overall.

[GreekAsTheGods]

You're entitled to your own opinions, but if you're going to confuse the results of Standard events from over two years ago as those of "recent Legacy events", people are going to believe that you don't have a solid grasp on the format. If you continue making sweeping statements about the format which are contrary to the observations of everyone else, then it's natural that people will dismiss your opinions as uninformed or as trolling.

I corrected myself on that and that really has nothing to do with the statement you quoted. The statement you quoted was made because someone started flaming me when I said I ran prison and listed 2 cards from said prison deck. I fully admit I'm uninformed on competitive Legacy format. Flaming someone based on the knowledge of 2 cards they like to use together hardly seems like civil intelligent conversation.

In the conversation directly before that all I said was that seeing Jace was getting boring because recently he literally seems to be everywhere. at least UW Miracle's alternate win condition of Angel Army is pretty entertaining. I remembered a while ago my friends had mentioned a top 8 with 32 Jaces and since they're actually big Legacy players I figured it was probably Legacy they'd be talking about. I was wrong. *shrugs*

[Dark Ritual]

The fact that there was pure control decks before there was Jace invalidates your entire post.

EDIT: And I'm sure you're right. If power creep continues as it has been then in 5 years every 1 drop will be a 3/3 with 5 abilities and DRS will be considered "unplayable".

Try running 2007 landstill lists in legacy today. You'll get crushed. Almost all archetypes have been strengthened in the past few years in legacy. JTMS strengthed control. Past in flames for storm. DRS and GSZ for midrange. The list goes on. Fact or fiction is weak by legacy standards if you cast it today and isn't good enough to lock up a game anymore, not by a longshot. Without JTMS control actually just dies in legacy until they print another engine like JTMS that can be used in legacy to make control powerful enough to be viable. Hint: I don't see that happening seeing as how JTMS is one of the most powerful cards ever printed.

DRS pressures the opponent? Okay, sure when DRS is alone on the board and both of you are in topdeck mode DRS is a threat assuming instants/sorceries are in the yard. But that's true of most if not all creatures in legacy. So DRS turns into gravehate kird ape when both decks are in topdeck mode, I don't see a problem with this at all. Yes, DRS is played a lot in legacy. So is brainstorm. So is swords to plowshares. What do you want, for people to not play good magic cards in legacy? Because that's what it sounds like.

32 jaces in a top 8 in a legacy event? Never happened and never will happen. You're probably referring to caw blade in standard for that number from 2010/3 and a half years ago.

[Koby]

Oh man, when does school start back up?

I will know it when it takes me 30 extra minutes on my morning commute.

And the quantity of below average posts drops to an acceptable threshold.

As for the health of Legacy format. My prediction for Theros' update:

No changes in Legacy. Wow what a shocker?! It's as if the format is self regulating itself just fine, powerful strategies are held in check by other powerful strategies. No single card dominates the tournament scene. Attendance is on the up.

[Teluin]

And the quantity of below average posts drops to an acceptable threshold.

There's an acceptable threshold?

[Koby]

There's an acceptable threshold?

Zero is still a number last I checked.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Try running 2007 landstill lists in legacy today. You'll get crushed. Almost all archetypes have been strengthened in the past few years in legacy. JTMS strengthed control. Past in flames for storm. DRS and GSZ for midrange. The list goes on. Fact or fiction is weak by legacy standards if you cast it today and isn't good enough to lock up a game anymore, not by a longshot. Without JTMS control actually just dies in legacy until they print another engine like JTMS that can be used in legacy to make control powerful enough to be viable. Hint: I don't see that happening seeing as how JTMS is one of the most powerful cards ever printed.

DRS pressures the opponent? Okay, sure when DRS is alone on the board and both of you are in topdeck mode DRS is a threat assuming instants/sorceries are in the yard. But that's true of most if not all creatures in legacy. So DRS turns into gravehate kird ape when both decks are in topdeck mode, I don't see a problem with this at all. Yes, DRS is played a lot in legacy. So is brainstorm. So is swords to plowshares. What do you want, for people to not play good magic cards in legacy? Because that's what it sounds like.

I don't want people to not play good cards. I just think there needs to be some use of intelligence on the parts of WotC when choosing how much better to make new cards. I think power creep is a bad thing.

Diabolic Edict is a great card and there's a new card called Geth's verdict which is similar but not altogether better. Diabolic Edict trades the ability to take one of an opponent's HP for a more flexible casting cost.

Withering Boon and Dismember are two more cards that I both consider really good. Withering Boon never saw the amount of use I felt it should. Dismember, when casted with phyrexian mana, is a 1 mana/4 life removal spell that can deal with Indestructibles, Regenerators, etc. Withering Boon was a 2 mana/3 life spell that could deal with Indestructibles, Regenerators AND creatures with ETB affects. The difference is 1 life or 1mana and the ability or lack of ability to stop pesky ETB affects like Snapcaster of Clique. In that way I see the spells being good to the same degree with different strengths.

DRS is just hands down better than every creature remotely comparible to what he does. The closest I suppose is Birds of Paradise. But they really aren't even remotely similar in my mind. Sure DRS's first ability requires a land in a graveyard to use, which would be a fair tradeoff to his more flexible split-mana CMC. And his 1/2 vs 0/1 and flying is pretty comparible considering they're utility creatures and as long as they exist they're doing their jobs. But then DRS also has 2 more abilities, both of which are amazing. In the past, you had to pay mana just to remove things from graveyards. Now you get to remove them AND shock opponents. His 3rd ability even helps deal with creatures like Nether Spirit or the targets of Shallow Grave at the cost of one mana and additionally granting a heal.

I guess I just don't feel DRS needed to be THAT far superior to similar creatures. Yes, a Gravehate creature was necessary. Without it holy crap would things suck right now. I just feel like he didn't need to be THAT good. There's a reason that he's friggin everywhere, in every deck that runs either B or G and some that don't but run enough duals to compensate. But now he's where the curve is, so judging by WotC's design philosophies Theros will have a 1 drop rare that forces your opponent to discard a card at random and adds mana to your mana pool equal to that card's colored mana symbols and then lets you draw 3 cards if there's any blue mana added that way and then untaps itself immediately if you draw any creature cards this way and is a 4/4 with hexproof. x_x Power creep is powerful and creepy. Do not want.

[menace13]

This thread delivers.

Also, ban some blue cards, unban some other non blue cards that will end up in blue decks anyway. DoingThisRight?

[Dice_Box]

DRS was made as strong as he due to past lessons learnt. When Jace was first known to be an issue cards like Phyrexian Revoker were printed as a response. But the cards printed were underpowered and saw no strong play. With the recent printing of cards like Gofy, and the unbanning of cards like Entomb, there was always going to be a push toward controlling the grave in a stronger way that was done before. The lessons the past taught was that if you want the card to be used, make it useful. So a powerful card is made to make its play desirable.

Now I have DRS in my Elf deck, I know its strength, but I also play Goblins and know how much of a pain it is. In my mind if it had of been a 1/1 the card would not have been nearly as spoken of as it has been. But them's the breaks. The die has been cast and this is what we have.

[AEnesidem]

On both MTG forums these banned list discussions always end up the same. No changes needed whatsoever but maybe unban mind twist, earthcraft and [insert random card here].

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Try running 2007 landstill lists in legacy today. You'll get crushed. Almost all archetypes have been strengthened in the past few years in legacy. JTMS strengthed control. Past in flames for storm. DRS and GSZ for midrange. The list goes on. Fact or fiction is weak by legacy standards if you cast it today and isn't good enough to lock up a game anymore, not by a longshot. Without JTMS control actually just dies in legacy until they print another engine like JTMS that can be used in legacy to make control powerful enough to be viable. Hint: I don't see that happening seeing as how JTMS is one of the most powerful cards ever printed.

DRS pressures the opponent? Okay, sure when DRS is alone on the board and both of you are in topdeck mode DRS is a threat assuming instants/sorceries are in the yard. But that's true of most if not all creatures in legacy. So DRS turns into gravehate kird ape when both decks are in topdeck mode, I don't see a problem with this at all. Yes, DRS is played a lot in legacy. So is brainstorm. So is swords to plowshares. What do you want, for people to not play good magic cards in legacy? Because that's what it sounds like.

32 jaces in a top 8 in a legacy event? Never happened and never will happen. You're probably referring to caw blade in standard for that number from 2010/3 and a half years ago.

I don't know if control got strengthened. I think control and midrange have mutated closer together. I mean fuck some "control" lists don't even have a board sweeper in their 75. Certainly traditional (for Legacy) board control (like Landstill, Rifter, most of the decks I built) is no longer really viable. Tempo go strengthened but there's no real aggro decks in the format. Right now the format is mostly Durdles, Combo, and Tempo.

[swoop]

ban jitte and equipements

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please use them in the future. Thanks. -zilla

[Dice_Box]

ban jitte and equipements

This is not a helpful post. Why should an entire class of card be removed from the format. You post offers no benefit to the conversation save for showing that you dislike something. Please add to your post or don't spam the forum with junk posts.

[majikal]

I doubt they will touch anything in Legacy. Gaea's Cradle and Mox Opal didn't blow everything apart with the new legend rule, and Jace still does exactly the same thing he's always done with the added bonus that now there can be a Jace on each side of the board, making games twice as much of whatever adjective you choose to describe such a board state! Nothing really stands out as overly dominant, so we can probably expect more of the same.

Just... Show and Tell is boring. And Griselbrand is twice as boring. And boring isn't a bannable offense. But we can dream, people! We can dream.

[Norm]

I doubt they will touch anything in Legacy. Gaea's Cradle and Mox Opal didn't blow everything apart with the new legend rule, and Jace still does exactly the same thing he's always done with the added bonus that now there can be a Jace on each side of the board, making games twice as much of whatever adjective you choose to describe such a board state! Nothing really stands out as overly dominant, so we can probably expect more of the same.

Just... Show and Tell is boring. And Griselbrand is twice as boring. And boring isn't a bannable offense. But we can dream, people! We can dream.

You can dream, some players actually enjoy casting Show and Tell. I personally think SNT matches are exciting and just as interesting as Storm matches. Just because new players find it easier to say "oh lame he cast SNT and then I lost" than "oh lame he cast some black thing that made three mana a few times and an artifact that made him discard his hand, drew like 15 cards and somehow I lost..." doesn't mean it's boring in general. I'm quite sure Wizards has analyzed the applications of SNT and compared them to other combo decks, they're intelligent enough to arrive at the conclusion that each deck has it's strengths and weaknesses and the community has proven repeatedly that none of them are too powerful to exist.

Keep dreaming buddy, I think Stoneforge mystic is boring but I don't see them banning that in legacy either...

[majikal]

"oh lame I cast SNT and then I won"

Fixed that for you.