Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[Tormod]

20 Tarmogoyf in the top 8

#bangoyf *sarcasm*

[Nielsie]

If decks running both Stoneforge and TNN keep putting up strong numbers, as they are right now, what one of the two do you see more likely getting the boot. Please note I am not saying ban either outright right now*, I am simply asking a question that is kicking around in my head right now. That if something comes to ahead, what will give first, TNN or the card that feeds him with Equipment that up until now had not been an issue?)

I already touched earlier in the topic on this. I think you have three options: TNN, Jitte or Stoneforge
- Stoneforge: you would destroy a whole batch of other decks in the splash damage while TNN decks would just run Jitte as a 4 of. Horrible solution...
- Jitte: could be a solution. Many people already don't like this card in Legacy. TNN decks can be raced or swarmed by other aggro or midrange strategies without seeing their creatures get killed by Jitte counters.
- TNN: we would return to the metagame before TNN. Not a bad thing because there was a lot more variation and openess in the format. The most important TNN decks (blade control and UWR) already are viable decks without TNN so they aren't hurt that much either. The only problematic thing if it happens right now: it would set a precedent for banning a new card too quickly.

The only really problematic equipment with TNN is Jitte. That is what times again takes over the board. Batterskull just takes too long to equip on a TNN.

As far as the meta is concerned. I am getting pretty bored with Starcitygames coverage. Luckily I never watch it live but just the recordings so I can skip all those TNN mirrors. My biggest problem at the moment: since TNN is legal it only failed to make an appearance into the finals the first legal weekend in LA. After this it made every Final and won all but one. Very exciting times huh? I always found Starcitygames coverage great because you would see so many different decks and every tournament was open for anyone to win, these days it seems that some TNN deck will just run away with it...

[dontbiteitholmes]

^^^
Exactly, this is the data that i'm talking about.

This really causes me to question those who are calling for a ban of TNN, just exactly how many games have they actually played with and/or against True-Name.

Re: the SCG Las Vegas Legacy top 8:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you Jund has all the answer to a TNN, and already crushes Esper Stoneblade should be better positioned. Two in the top 8. Folks are claiming that TNN kills rug, yet we see three in the top 8. The top 16 we see the "pre-TNN" usual suspects of Elves, Death and Taxes, Countertop, Sneak Show, an Esper Stoneblade and some variety with imperial painter and lands.

Let's not underestimate for our beautiful format's ability to find answers, and really lets be real here, yes TNN is a card, but really its not that amazing.

Stay calm and play Legacy.

Yeah it's amazing how once every deck either ignores TNN or runs at least 2x SB cards which deal with it all of a sudden it looks like it might not ruin Legacy. It's almost like the format is adapting or something. Damn never could have seen that coming, good thing everyone didn't freak out and ask for a banning or something before the format had time to adjust because in hindsight that might look foolish. Oh wait, that totally did happen, well at least once things settle down and people see TNN isn't the end of the world they will learn a lesson and next time something like this happens they will not freak out, holy crap did anyone else just have deja-vu? It's almost like this has happened many times before.

No one said RUG Delver was dead, but all of the top RUG decklists have adapted by running TNN in their 75s.

Yeah it took the Sulfuric Vortex slot for good reason. It can absorb Batterskull, swing through blockers, is hard to kill, and is easier to cast. Definitely an upgrade there but at the same time RUG Delver now also has to battle against opposing TNNs which it can potentially have a hard time with, so it all evens out.

[Feaor]

Apparently TNN makes Sylvan Basilisk a card in Jund, who would've guessed 5 mana 2/4s were legacy playable. Its pretty easy to say herp derp the whole top 8 isn't Trueblade but if you look at the sideboards for some of the decks like Jund in particular, there are 11-13 cards they are bringing in for that matchup. The reason they're doing ok is that the Trueblade decks are popular and so they can devote their whole sideboard, for the most part, to beating it and hope to just play nothing but those decks and other decks like RUG that they are naturally good against.

[lordofthepit]

Apparently TNN makes Sylvan Basilisk a card in Jund, who would've guessed 5 mana 2/4s were legacy playable.

They're not.

[HSCK]

Apparently TNN makes Sylvan Basilisk a card in Jund, who would've guessed 5 mana 2/4s were legacy playable. Its pretty easy to say herp derp the whole top 8 isn't Trueblade but if you look at the sideboards for some of the decks like Jund in particular, there are 11-13 cards they are bringing in for that matchup. The reason they're doing ok is that the Trueblade decks are popular and so they can devote their whole sideboard, for the most part, to beating it and hope to just play nothing but those decks and other decks like RUG that they are naturally good against.

This is literally the most nonsensical thing I've ever read on this forum. Having an extra Ancient Grudge and a couple Golgari Charms is definitely super warping, not like there are other decks that you might want them for, maybe some sort of combo deck that is pretty fast involving x/1s? And Basilisk, what!?

[Tylert]

D&T would hate seeing Jund with extra Golgari charms and ancient grudges... It's already a not so good matchup.

Basilisk ... hum... don't see why it's good against Jund.

[Feaor]

This is literally the most nonsensical thing I've ever read on this forum. Having an extra Ancient Grudge and a couple Golgari Charms is definitely super warping, not like there are other decks that you might want them for, maybe some sort of combo deck that is pretty fast involving x/1s? And Basilisk, what!?

I will give you that most of the sideboard cards aren't that narrow that they're useless in other match ups but they are definitely boarding a lot of cards for that matchup, REB, Charm, Edict, EE, Grudge, etc. Like I said they have about 11 cards to bring in for that matchup, I think any matchup is pretty winnable if you sideboard that many cards for it. As for Basilisk go look at the 5th place Jund list as its pretty clear that you haven't if you're asking this.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Apparently TNN makes Sylvan Basilisk a card in Jund, who would've guessed 5 mana 2/4s were legacy playable. Its pretty easy to say herp derp the whole top 8 isn't Trueblade but if you look at the sideboards for some of the decks like Jund in particular, there are 11-13 cards they are bringing in for that matchup. The reason they're doing ok is that the Trueblade decks are popular and so they can devote their whole sideboard, for the most part, to beating it and hope to just play nothing but those decks and other decks like RUG that they are naturally good against.

Hate to burst your bubble kid but that is obviously supposed to be Sylvan Library. Someone got owned by autocomplete and didn't notice.

Also give me a break. Is there any possible top 8 where someone wouldn't find an excuse to complain about TNN.

The top 8 could be 8 different combo decks and people would be like "TNN made creature decks unviable, ban TNN!"

[HSCK]

I will give you that most of the sideboard cards aren't that narrow that they're useless in other match ups but they are definitely boarding a lot of cards for that matchup, REB, Charm, Edict, EE, Grudge, etc. Like I said they have about 11 cards to bring in for that matchup, I think any matchup is pretty winnable if you sideboard that many cards for it. As for Basilisk go look at the 5th place Jund list as its pretty clear that you haven't if you're asking this.

What are you talking about? It's in neither list and no one is casting 5 mana 2/4s in the hope the opponent will block it, if you think that then I suggest you actually play Legacy.

[Feaor]

What are you talking about? It's in neither list and no one is casting 5 mana 2/4s in the hope the opponent will block it, if you think that then I suggest you actually play Legacy.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=61492

Now someone suggested it was a typo which could very well be the case, but weirdly its a card which can't be profitably blocked by TNN.

[lyracian]

. As for Basilisk go look at the 5th place Jund list as its pretty clear that you haven't if you're asking this.

Hate to burst your bubble kid but that is obviously supposed to be Sylvan Library. Someone got owned by autocomplete and didn't notice."

I did not see any of Mr. Hunsaker's games on camera so I have no idea if he was playing Basilisk or Library; I would expect Library but even if it was Basilisk there is no saying that i did any good as a lone one-of. River Boa would seem a better choice if you want an evasive creature to answer True-Blade. A 2/4 with no equipment is never going to race a 3/1. Nice spot in seeing it in the list though!

[bjholmes3]

Good to see other people have started pouring actual data into this nonsensical thread. Why would someone who allows cards like Force of Will, which completely negates certain archetypes (glass cannon combo, mostly), complain about TNN for doing some of the same things? It's uninteractive? Unfun? Talk to a Belcher player about how they feel about Force. Oh wait, they got over it. FoW is ancient, and people have adapted.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=61492

Now someone suggested it was a typo which could very well be the case, but weirdly its a card which can't be profitably blocked by TNN.

Please tell me you are a troll.

[HSCK]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=61492

Now someone suggested it was a typo which could very well be the case, but weirdly its a card which can't be profitably blocked by TNN.

It says Scavenging Ooze. So what if TNN can't block it profitably? WHY ARE THEY BLOCKING IT EVER!? Why would anyone play that card, it's totally ridiculous.

[Arsenal]

Good to see other people have started pouring actual data into this nonsensical thread. Why would someone who allows cards like Force of Will, which completely negates certain archetypes (glass cannon combo, mostly), complain about TNN for doing some of the same things? It's uninteractive? Unfun? Talk to a Belcher player about how they feel about Force. Oh wait, they got over it. FoW is ancient, and people have adapted.

For the umpteenth time, combo is supposed to be uninteractive by it's very design. Nobody is complaining about combo being uninteractive because it's supposed to be uninteractive; that's like complaining that fire is hot. Creatures, however, are completely different. Creatures, by design, are supposed to be interacted with. In fact, Magic has an entire phase dedicated to creatures (combat) so that players may interact with opposing creatures with their own creatures and spells and/or abilities.

danyul has a pretty nice post a few pages ago re: the mentality of combo vs. fair and how TNN changes the dynamic of Magic.

RE: data, SCG Legacy Open Las Vegas has 4/8 decks running TNN in their 75, with a TNN deck winning the whole thing (I seem to recall another TNN deck winning last week's SCG Open too). 2/8 decks are combo and don't care about TNN decks at all. The remaining 2 decks are midrange decks that lose terribly to combo, but just so happen to be in colors that wreck TNN decks. Seems good.

[Feaor]

It says Scavenging Ooze. So what if TNN can't block it profitably? WHY ARE THEY BLOCKING IT EVER!? Why would anyone play that card, it's totally ridiculous.

Uh what? Can you actually read? Look in the Maindeck. I'll concede that its probably Sylvan Library but they haven't changed it, of all the typos they could have its weird because its obviously really bad but because of TNN there is a very slight chance it might be real.

[Finn]

I am not weighing in here. I am on the fence, and I am thankful that this thread exists, and that you folks are arguing so passionately on both sides. I have been lurking to see what the rest of you have to say. So I am really only here to make trouble.

Good to see other people have started pouring actual data into this nonsensical thread. Why would someone who allows cards like Force of Will, which completely negates certain archetypes (glass cannon combo, mostly), complain about TNN for doing some of the same things? It's uninteractive? Unfun? Talk to a Belcher player about how they feel about Force. Oh wait, they got over it. FoW is ancient, and people have adapted.

This is a terrible argument. Glass cannon pilots did not adapt to anything. In fact, they just lose to the point that we actually have a category of deck called "glass cannon" with a narrative that your strategy is to hope you don't face FoW. This is precisely what people do not want TNN to do to aggro. You have just made a solid argument for the opposing position.

[TsumiBand]

If we operate on the assumption that Sylvan Basilisk is not a typo (which, I strongly doubt), there are a number of cards which are arguably much, much better with a similar effect.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...y%5D&sort=cmc+

Tangle Asp is a 1/2 for 1G that might actually come down before TNN and encourage less blocking. Cockatrice is strictly better, although this strangely may be an actual corner case for why "strictly better isn't always strictly better" -- Flying makes it worse if the goal is to try and get TNN to chump it. Speaking entirely as a little kid, I've often wanted to play BG Madness, which makes Gorgon Recluse more attractive than the lot of these creatures.

Really, the more I try to humor the idea that the best thing the pilot could dream up to combat TNN is to trick the opponent into blocking with their 3/1, the more I believe that the presence of Sylvan Basilisk is simply a typo. At that point, you may as well just play creatures with Flanking in concert with Cavalry Master, the self-appointed king of keyword recursion. Stock up on those Jolrael's Centaurs!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd use that enchantment that changes creature types and change TNN into Wall... then BOOOOM! smash it with a Battering Ram.

EDIT:
It's called Unnatural Selection and it can't change creatures into Walls...
Wait! In fact I just band the Ram with Basilisk and start the race.
Or even better. I'd change TNN into Legend and let it die to legend rule.