[Deck] Death and Taxes

[danyul]

Tower can't target TNN. Manriki Gusari seems better. You can also fetch Manriki via SFM as opposed to waiting to draw into a singleton land. But I don't play D&T so feel free to ignore meeeeeeee!

[from Cairo]

I think Tower of the Magistrate is passable. I wouldn't want it conflicting with 15 White sources though. IE 9-10 Plains, 3-4 Karakas, 1-2 Canopy/Cavern/Castle - I would want these to equal 15 before I devoted one of our 23 mana sources to Tower. I would be comfortable with it MD to sub for a spell slot (maybe in a specific meta to sub for a colorless utility land) or out of the SB to come in for a colorless source or spell per need.

I think it's worth noting that it still doesn't answer Jitte on a TNN all that well, something like Disenchant or Spellskite is still probably stronger.

[Oreia]

Hello,
Nice report and grats !

Just wondering how did aven mindcensor performed for you ? that card for me seems to be a hit or miss card, if you are able to play it early its nice but at times even on the 3rd turn its just too late..., isn't leonin arbiter does a better job over aven as it could come down a turn earlier ?

Do you still plan on running 2 pcs of aven ? the number aswell seems too low for it to come down early

I don't think i'll cut the Avens, at least not for now, that guy is NUTS, it shuts down some of your bad matches(Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Merchant Scroll), swings 2 in the air and sometimes is fast enough to stop some of the SFM decks(UWR being the most commom one).

it also scares the creep out of the opponent, when you have vial sitting on 3 try to activate it during combat or on upkeep just to scare the guy, when you really draw the Aven/Flickerwisps they won't even see it comming.

[_erbs_]

I don't think i'll cut the Avens, at least not for now, that guy is NUTS, it shuts down some of your bad matches(Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Merchant Scroll), swings 2 in the air and sometimes is fast enough to stop some of the SFM decks(UWR being the most commom one).

it also scares the creep out of the opponent, when you have vial sitting on 3 try to activate it during combat or on upkeep just to scare the guy, when you really draw the Aven/Flickerwisps they won't even see it comming.

I know its good but i feel its really a miss or hit card.., if you value them highly why not increase the count to 3 or 4 ? instead of 2..

[Phoenix13]

Is there a particular reason why Aven Mindcensor has been replacing Mangara in recent decklists?

[Barbed Blightning]

Elves is the particular reason. However, not everyone (myself included) is convinced that it is the right move. I have relegated AM to the SB for now

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Oreia]

Is there a particular reason why Aven Mindcensor has been replacing Mangara in recent decklists?

At first i just copied Thomas Enevoldsen's last list from BOM, where he cut the mangaras and left the Mindcensor.After playing for some time with the list i figured out that the mangaras wasn't making the cut in the deck, it was a side out in EVERY single match, exept for the ones that were already good(omnitell, sneak and show).

Also, the Avens has some more upsides: It Flys(in a sea of True-Name Nemesis it is really good, even with the SoFI having the hability to pass by with any help i great), and it's a MD hate against ANT(Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor),High Tide(which is a tough matchup, it locks fetchs and merchant scroll), Elves(HORRIBLE MATCHUP, having Avens against this deck is just amazing, GSZ, fetchs and NO looks silly against you) and any deck with intuition(Lands, Omnitell, Sneak Attack, UW Painters).

Well, that's my argument for keeping the Avens in the deck, hope you guys can understand my point and also show your, everytime someone show their one point of view i learn something.
Happy new Year to everybody!

[berry]

At first i just copied Thomas Enevoldsen's last list from BOM, where he cut the mangaras and left the Mindcensor.After playing for some time with the list i figured out that the mangaras wasn't making the cut in the deck, it was a side out in EVERY single match, exept for the ones that were already good(omnitell, sneak and show).

Also, the Avens has some more upsides: It Flys(in a sea of True-Name Nemesis it is really good, even with the SoFI having the hability to pass by with any help i great), and it's a MD hate against ANT(Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor),High Tide(which is a tough matchup, it locks fetchs and merchant scroll), Elves(HORRIBLE MATCHUP, having Avens against this deck is just amazing, GSZ, fetchs and NO looks silly against you) and any deck with intuition(Lands, Omnitell, Sneak Attack, UW Painters).

Well, that's my argument for keeping the Avens in the deck, hope you guys can understand my point and also show your, everytime someone show their one point of view i learn something.
Happy new Year to everybody!

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card. Siding something out means it doesn't have a home postboard, not preboard. There is a reason we always have card X in the sideboard, and maybe side it in in "a majority" of games, but it's still a sideboard card. While another card Y might be great and diverse in post board games but not good enough postboard (maybe because card X is better and _more specific_, or because card Y is bad against something they board in).

Are you following? In my eyes Mangara is that card, it's a diverse answer and a generally strong card but post board it's a 3 CMC 1 toughness and isn't very specific, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Mindcensor is kinda trying to be specific in a broad metagame and is thus in my eyes more of a sideboard-card.

I'm not saying this IS how it IS, it's how I see these cards, and it's a way to look at cards that most be remembered anyhow.

[klaus]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card. Siding something out means it doesn't have a home postboard, not preboard. There is a reason we always have card X in the sideboard, and maybe side it in in "a majority" of games, but it's still a sideboard card. While another card Y might be great and diverse in post board games but not good enough postboard (maybe because card X is better and _more specific_, or because card Y is bad against something they board in).

Are you following? In my eyes Mangara is that card, it's a diverse answer and a generally strong card but post board it's a 3 CMC 1 toughness and isn't very specific, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Mindcensor is kinda trying to be specific in a broad metagame and is thus in my eyes more of a sideboard-card.

If there's a spell you find yourself boarding out >90% of Gs2/3 and board in a certain SB spell >70% of the time you should seriously consider rebuilding that mo'fo. It's called meta'ing© or something.

[Arsenal]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mr. Froggy]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

I find this makes no sense, at all..

Also, I still run with Enevoldsen's GP Strasbourg list.. Haven't needed to change anything from the deck. Well, in my playgroup at least.

[Finn]

Well, Mangara is bad against True Name Nemesis. I think that the decks that we were seeing over the last month or so were a reaction to that card. I have been faring well against decks with Nemesis, so I have been comfortable keeping Mangara in. If my experiences prove typical, we can expect to see Mangara creep back I to those lists that had cut him.

[from Cairo]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

I find this makes no sense, at all..

Theoretically, I follow Berry's point that Mangara has broad application, Vindicate on a body does [tries to do] something in almost every game. If enough of the meta is sufficiently attacked by a slow-Vindicate it could be a passable MD card. Varying more narrow/match specific options could replace it in most post board scenarios. Practically, in a card pool as large as Legacy, if a card isn't pulling it's weight in 1/2-2/3 of games there is probably a better MD card.

[berry]

Theoretically, I follow Berry's point that Mangara has broad application, Vindicate on a body does [tries to do] something in almost every game. If enough of the meta is sufficiently attacked by a slow-Vindicate it could be a passable MD card. Varying more narrow/match specific options could replace it in most post board scenarios. Practically, in a card pool as large as Legacy, if a card isn't pulling it's weight in 1/2-2/3 of games there is probably a better MD card.

I _think_ you're saying what I was trying to say, thanks.

[DavidHernandez]

If Mangara were to be removed, what is the point of running 3 Karakas? Wouldn't Basic Plains, or some other utility lands, be better? I don't really think they'd be needed to protect Thalia.

Dave

[monovfox]

Barry is completely right about maindeckable cards that are almost-always sided out.

I almost always side out my swords to plowshares against combo. Card is clearly not playable in maindeck /sarcasm

Revoker gets sided out against RUG Delver. Doesn't make it bad either.

Spellskite gets sided out against decks lacking spot removal. Doesn't make it bad either.

[from Cairo]

If Mangara were to be removed, what is the point of running 3 Karakas? Wouldn't Basic Plains, or some other utility lands, be better? I don't really think they'd be needed to protect Thalia.

Their utility with Thalia and the added protection against opponents' Legendary Creatures is valuable. Basic Plains wouldn't be better, there is very little downside to Karakas. It's upsides make Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Tin Fins and Miracles much more favorable matches. It's downside is making our Wasteland susceptibility slightly larger, our matches against Wasteland Tempo decks are generally not poor to begin with. I think Karakas 1-3 are better than the first copies of Eiganjo Castle, Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factory. I wouldn't want to go above 2 Horizon Canopy regardless of Karakas count.

[DavidHernandez]

Their utility with Thalia and the added protection against opponents' Legendary Creatures is valuable. Basic Plains wouldn't be better, there is very little downside to Karakas. It's upsides make Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Tin Fins and Miracles much more favorable matches. It's downside is making our Wasteland susceptibility slightly larger, our matches against Wasteland Tempo decks are generally not poor to begin with. I think Karakas 1-3 are better than the first copies of Eiganjo Castle, Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factory. I wouldn't want to go above 2 Horizon Canopy regardless of Karakas count.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hi guys! Figured i should finally get an account to chime in from time to time rather than just hanging around and stealing your ideas.

The interaction that I like the most in Death and Taxes is vial/Karakas/Mangara, but as the format gets faster and plays get more and more powerful, it doesn´t make much sense anymore. If you want a maindeck (to be sided out in 90% of match-ups) answer to permanents, consider unexpectedly absent.

I´ve got more of an idea about Vintage than Legacy, so I may be off base here, but why are there no chalice of the void in people´s sideboards? Chalice for one seems like a very strong play against at least three of the deck´s harder match-ups; Elves!, Canadian Thresh and High Tide. Chalice for zero should make the storm match-up close to un-loosable.

Grafdigger´s cage seems like it should be more than a one-of in sideboards if there are Elves!, Reanimator or Nic Fit in the meta. This deck has no tutors, after all.

Lastly, what is your experience splashing green for Gaddock Teeg? The splash seems possible and the guy does some serious damage against a broad range of decks. It also seems like a decent idea to add another bounce-able blocker to the maindeck. Knight of the Reliquary may be worse in a deathrite-infected metagame, but is either big or at least a fine utility creature (answering Show and Tell from your hand, among other things). Something like this?

3 Horizon Canopy (Love this card. Counteracts flooding from the 23-card land base.)
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Plains (how bad is this low number really? We should generally be the most stable wasteland deck.)

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Flickerwisp

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Grafdigger´s Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg

[DavidHernandez]

Hi guys! Figured i should finally get an account to chime in from time to time rather than just hanging around and stealing your ideas.

The interaction that I like the most in Death and Taxes is vial/Karakas/Mangara, but as the format gets faster and plays get more and more powerful, it doesn´t make much sense anymore. If you want a maindeck (to be sided out in 90% of match-ups) answer to permanents, consider unexpectedly absent.

I´ve got more of an idea about Vintage than Legacy, so I may be off base here, but why are there no chalice of the void in people´s sideboards? Chalice for one seems like a very strong play against at least three of the deck´s harder match-ups; Elves!, Canadian Thresh and High Tide. Chalice for zero should make the storm match-up close to un-loosable.

Grafdigger´s cage seems like it should be more than a one-of in sideboards if there are Elves!, Reanimator or Nic Fit in the meta. This deck has no tutors, after all.

Lastly, what is your experience splashing green for Gaddock Teeg? The splash seems possible and the guy does some serious damage against a broad range of decks. It also seems like a decent idea to add another bounce-able blocker to the maindeck. Knight of the Reliquary may be worse in a deathrite-infected metagame, but is either big or at least a fine utility creature (answering Show and Tell from your hand, among other things). Something like this?

3 Horizon Canopy (Love this card. Counteracts flooding from the 23-card land base.)
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Plains (how bad is this low number really? We should generally be the most stable wasteland deck.)

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Flickerwisp

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Grafdigger´s Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg

Chalice shuts to much of your deck down.