All B/R update speculation.

[Arsenal]

Because he ...

He doesn't need another deck. Also, in the above list I don't see many ABUR duals with "tap: add either B, R or G" nor the appropriate fetches. Instead of purchasing USD 1500 manabase, maybe it is wiser to sell the USD 1500 non-lands.

I was typing my post as he was typing/posting his, I did not read his post until after I already hit "Submit Reply". Also, what he chooses to do with his cards is his choice, but I would gladly sell my Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins deck in order to get closer to building any BGx deck I want. Even though BGx is on the decline, it's still more competitive than Goblins, Burn, Painter and Dredge.

[leegoo]

I see your T1 Ad Nauseam and raise you:
T1 City of Traitors, Mox Diamond discarding land, Metalworker. (now you Ad Nauseam) T2 City of Traitors sacrificing city of Traitors, Tap Metalworker to reveal 2 artifacts, Grim Monolith, Mind Twist for X=9 on turn 2. So much for your Ad Nauseam draw!

I don't think you get a t2

[Arsenal]

RND are way to triggerhappy. I aggre with the unbans for modern but really banning deathrite without having the other 2s unbanned for 3 months seem wrong. Doubt zoo is gonna come back in full action as an aggro strategi with snapcaster lightning bolt / path to exile in the format. Just gonna be a such up-hill battle.

Snapcaster --> flashback value just got infinitely better with DRS gone. Like I said, UWR will see a definite uptick thanks to no DRS, no turn 2 Lilianas and maybe less overall Thoughtseize.

[FTW]

I don't think you get a t2

I don't think you get sarcasm.

That line of play is awful, as you just lost 2 lands, played nothing but card-disadvantage mana rocks and have only 1 card in hand after a 2-turn Mind Twist.

[leegoo]

I don't think you get sarcasm.

That line of play is awful, as you just lost 2 lands, played nothing but card-disadvantage mana rocks and have only 1 card in hand after a 2-turn Mind Twist.

I got it, it just didn't work :)

[DragoFireheart]

Right, cause they regularly punt Legacy (and have done for the last 5 years) and have shown a complete ineptness in Modern since it's inception. Because making Magic better is making you happy.

If caring about about formats being healthy and reasonably accessible is merely "making me happy" then not only should they be making me perfectly happy but you as well.

Unless you want Legacy to go the route Vintage went. By all means if you are content with that route then I will say nothing more.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was typing my post as he was typing/posting his, I did not read his post until after I already hit "Submit Reply". Also, what he chooses to do with his cards is his choice, but I would gladly sell my Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins deck in order to get closer to building any BGx deck I want. Even though BGx is on the decline, it's still more competitive than Goblins, Burn, Painter and Dredge.

Maybe he likes those decks? IDK, and we may only guess; Dice_Box should tell us.

Also, there's little point in selling Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins, those would not get you significantly closer to BGx. Excluding LEDS, Dredge has no value. Monocolored decks (and I dare to say that the mentioned decks are monocolored; see the list again) won't also get Dice_Box anywhere closer (except for Piledrivers, NO and similar stuff). 14 days ago I counted my LEDless Dredge deck (as some dude wanted to buy it) and even though I got some "pimp" cards there, and even though I included the whole expanded sideboard), it still wasn't much more than the cost of Bayou plus Taiga.

So Dice_Box have chosen completely different approach than me (keeping several cheap decks vs. keeping one expensive deck) and in light of this, the idea to sell Modern stuff is less unreasonable, unless you advise him to keep the cards for speculative reasons:

Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, Scavenging Ooze, Maelstrom Pulse, fetchlands, etc. Many, many Legacy staples...

...don't see much play in Elves, Fish, Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins. One may argue that Thoughtseize is solid sb material for Elves and Goblins, but that's about it. (And both decks would be better with Therapy.)

[Arsenal]

...don't see much play in Elves, Fish, Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins. One may argue that Thoughtseize is solid sb material for Elves and Goblins, but that's about it. (And both decks would be better with Therapy.)

For the 2nd time, I did not read his post re: what decks he owns until after I already posted about BGx Legacy staples.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For the 2nd time, I did not read his post re: what decks he owns until after I already posted about BGx Legacy staples, yet I still wrote that "I would gladly sell my Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins deck in order to get closer to building any BGx deck I want."

And contrary to you, I wouldn't sell those decks to get me anywhere closer to any BGx deck.

/ot


Now when we're through this, I'd love to read ppl's opinions about this:

Snapcaster --> flashback value just got infinitely better with DRS gone. Like I said, UWR will see a definite uptick thanks to no DRS, no turn 2 Lilianas and maybe less overall Thoughtseize.

Seems possible. Will it make the format better, worse, will it even happen? No more six Junds in Top8: seems good.

[MaximumC]

Also a greybeard here. I agree with most of your other assessments, but I think this one is way off. In a format where people can get below 4 cards in the first couple turns, you have to play it early for it to be effective, which means you have to run 4 copies. Thing is, every copy you draw past the first is completely dead in most cases. Most highly aggressive decks in this format can't afford dead draws at all.

Vice might make Stasis viable. It might see play in a Burn variant alongside Shrapnel Blast. Neither of these is likely to significantly impact the metagame. Vice is safe to come off, imo.

We see eye to eye on the fact that the card is not "overpowered" by itself. But, ask yourself, would this card see play:

Black Spike
1
Sorcery
Cast this spell only during the first and second turn of the game.
Deal 3 damage to target player, then flip a coin until it comes up tails. Deal 3 additional damage to that player for each time the coin came up heads.

Depending on the matchup, this is more or less what Black Vise does. Sometimes the enemy dumps their hand right away, but often they take a bit of damage over time. It's really only good early and a terrible topdeck.

We differ on whether "Black Spike" is legacy playable. I think the chance of massive damage for almost no investment is too good to ignore. Particularly in a deck that can get value out of the bad topdeck, like affinity, this seems like an oppressive four-of in many aggressive decks.

[FTW]

We differ on whether "Black Spike" is legacy playable. I think the chance of massive damage for almost no investment is too good to ignore. Particularly in a deck that can get value out of the bad topdeck, like affinity, this seems like an oppressive four-of in many aggressive decks.

I disagree that Affinity gets any value out of this topdeck.

Decks that could abuse it better are RUG Delver and UR Delver and UWR Delver. 8Delver.dec seems good, cantrips to stop you from topdecking lategame Vise seems good. Monored burn probably doesn't want it unless it's some weird version with artifact lands and Shrapnel Blast.

You could hate out the format with this joke of a deck:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Flame Rift
2 Shrapnel Blast
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Great Furnace
16 Mountain

Fetchlands hit you for 5? Sucks
Did GG make you draw more lands? LOLVise oops
Oh hai nonbasics

[Rizso]

And contrary to you, I wouldn't sell those decks to get me anywhere closer to any BGx deck.

/ot


Now when we're through this, I'd love to read ppl's opinions about this:


Seems possible. Will it make the format better, worse, will it even happen? No more six Junds in Top8: seems good.

So now it will be 6 of 8 snapcaster mage decks instead. Guess until may when they will ban snapcaster as well! Or lightning Bolt...

[Zombie]

Vise also conveniently assassinates Planeswalkers. Not that TNN doesn't do a ton of work pushing them out in the first place.
And yeah, tempo decks seem like the obvious place for it. Stop their ability to play efficiently, and Vise will go to town.
Vise also makes playing out awkward draws much, much worse, and Mulligan: The Goldfishing is pretty surely a pretty damn boring way to "play" this game.

[MaximumC]

I disagree that Affinity gets any value out of this topdeck.

Decks that could abuse it better are RUG Delver and UR Delver and UWR Delver. 8Delver.dec seems good, cantrips to stop you from topdecking lategame Vise seems good.

Spirit of the Labyrinth punishes the cantrip decks pretty bad, though.

You could hate out the format with this joke of a deck:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Flame Rift
2 Shrapnel Blast
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Great Furnace
16 Mountain

Fetchlands hit you for 5? Sucks
Did GG make you draw more lands? LOLVise oops
Oh hai nonbasics

GG + Vise is pretty spicy, gotta admit.

[rufus]

...

GG + Vise is pretty spicy, gotta admit.

I was looking for Devastating Dreams in the proposed vise list. Vise is potentially nasty in Stasis/Landstill set ups too.

[DragoFireheart]

Vise also conveniently assassinates Planeswalkers. Not that TNN doesn't do a ton of work pushing them out in the first place.
And yeah, tempo decks seem like the obvious place for it. Stop their ability to play efficiently, and Vise will go to town.
Vise also makes playing out awkward draws much, much worse, and Mulligan: The Goldfishing is pretty surely a pretty damn boring way to "play" this game.

Vise would be interesting in some Affinity deck.

Turn 1 Artifact Land, Vise, Mox Opal, Vise. Laugh at the control/mid-range player who's half dead by turn 2.

[lordofthepit]

Did you live under a rock or something during the summer?

No, Lemnear just has contempt for anyone not playing a combo deck. Everyone knows that statement was false.

[DragoFireheart]

No, Lemnear just has contempt for anyone not playing a combo deck. Everyone knows that statement was false.

Well, combo is superior to everything else. Why shouldn't he have contempt for OCD control players or the unwashed masses of aggro players?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Vise also conveniently assassinates Planeswalkers. Not that TNN doesn't do a ton of work pushing them out in the first place.
And yeah, tempo decks seem like the obvious place for it. Stop their ability to play efficiently, and Vise will go to town.

Good points. In your opinion, are these reasons enough to keep the Vise banned?

Vise also makes playing out awkward draws much, much worse, and Mulligan: The Goldfishing is pretty surely a pretty damn boring way to "play" this game.

I want a "Mulligan: The Goldfishing" long-sleeve right now!

[Lemnear]

No, Lemnear just has contempt for anyone not playing a combo deck. Everyone knows that statement was false.

Because I was the ONLY one creating a hyperbole here, saying that decks that don't even make 3% of the metagame after being a top dog foxr year equals "dead" for my standards. It is no way more false than claiming Goblins was fine WORLDWIDE prior to TNN providing fringe UNITED STATES data of 9 months old Top 16 appearances ... seriously lol.

Would you please stop running your mouth about people you ignore being active in the Tempo, Blade, Miracles, Elves Threads as well AND playing those decks online and IRL but rather choose to reduce on archetype x so you can make an insultive point?

I have a contempt for jackasses with selective perception