Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
But I don't want to spend thousands on my manabase.Originally Posted by Arsenal
You can't have it all. If you want to play with Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, then you'll need your Flooded Strands and Tundras. Sorry, that's the cost of entry into top tier Legacy. If you're not okay with that, then Modern is there for you, but the cost of entry into that format is accepting that you won't have access to cards like Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor.
What you actually mean is WotC won't let me have it all because they're incompetent morons who lack any ability to manage any Eternal formats whatsoever?
Oh, it's happening all right.
It's funny that you can tell how long players have been around by the arguments/cards they discuss in relation to banning and unbanning. People that argue clamp should be legal more than likely never played with it, people that argue twist and vice should been unbanned tend to be greybeards, and people that argue survival should be unbanned tend to have just started playing seriously the last time survival was legal :P
Sure, I'll give you $5 for your 'worthless' Rock deck. Your comment is rhetorical and just stupid. I actually think Rock is one of the decks previously running DRS to come away from this without being crippled.
It's funny how people beating up Modern are flaying the DRS banning without mentioning that, for the first time, they have banned and unbanned to a net positive for the format. They banned something, but there are now fewer cards on the list. WotC is actively involved in trying to make the format 'better' - not just by limiting it's power level, but also by expanding the pool.
Right, cause they regularly punt Legacy (and have done for the last 5 years) and have shown a complete ineptness in Modern since it's inception. Because making Magic better is making you happy.
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
-----
Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
-----
Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
Goyf has been out for 6 years and it cost 150USD with probably thousands and thousands of copies... FOW coste 100USD and has been out for 18 years... how much would it cost goyf by that time? This is a collectors game... you must pay the cost of demanding cards and dont cry about it...
Looks like the bitching about prices and reprints thread in here.
Hill Giant means business.
Greybeard chiming in here. The format is pretty healthy right now. I'm not sure you're totally correct:
1. Clamp is absurd in decks with small creatures. Elves, Affinity, and Gobbos would immediately use it. Other aggro decks would use it for value. It's not over-powered in a world of Show and Tell, in absolute terms, but if you unbanned it then it would immediately be EVERYWHERE. Too oppressive to unban.
2. Black Vise is also absurd. Turn 1, in the worst case scenario, it is a colorless lightning bolt, and it is not uncommon to take 6 or more of the opponent's life if you drop it on turn 1. Most decks will get out from under a Vise quickly with relative ease, but if you're running an aggressive strategy, that initial damage makes it difficult for the opponent to last very long. As with Clamp, it may not really be overpowered relative to cards in the format, but if it's unbanned you will see aggressive decks jamming 4 just because of the potential for a HUGE life swing for almost no investment. It would be EVERYWHERE and so it's too oppressive to unban.
3. Survival of the Fittest seems like a go-either-way kind of card. It's powerful, very powerful, and with the printing of Vengevine it got even bigger. Still, it's essentially a slower and more reliable re-animator strategy that, in my mind, did not have a long enough period of dominance for the format to adjust and find good answers. The argument for banning Survival seems very similar to the one for banning Mystical Tutor. Hard call to make, gotta rely on the people with the actual data on this.
4. Earthcraft seems like a pretty darn safe unban to me. What are we worried about, Squirrel Nest combos? Legacy has better combinations. Earthcraft seems like Land Tax and Scroll Rack; cards that were absurdly powerful in the past, but nowadays would not shake things up much. What is the reasoning for keeping it on the list at all at this point?
5. Mind Twist also seems like a safe unban. It's legal in Vintage and sees no play. It's probably worse than Hymn to Torach. The only reason this is still on the list seems, to me, to be because when it works it's a feel bad. Turn 1 ritual, ritual, 5 point Mind Twist is pretty much game over. That only happens once in a blue moon, though. Are we really worried about a 3 mana Hymn? I'm not.
Black Vise is about the worst top deck ever. Has blank text on the draw versus any mid range or aggressive deck. Is bad Lava Spike without building around it. Burn wouldn't even play it, because it's average output vs Goblin Guide, Bolt, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer is terrible. About the only thing it has going for it is to build a prison deck around it ... most prison decks want chalice on 1 really bad. This costs 1. Prison isn't really anywhere on the map right now outside of maybe DnT which has a heavy mana denial theme. I mean Stasis would have a win condition ... unfortunately they printed Abrupt Decay. One positive for the vise is the current wording doesn't target.
Skullclamp, Memory Jar and Mind's Desire are fucking insane and if you don't understand why I don't have the patience to explain it to you.
Not at all. What people miss about this is you've just used up three cards in order to take out 4. In order to cripple your opponent's hand, you've crippled yours as well. It's true you came out ahead (losing 3 cards instead of 4) but you've still hurt yourself as well as them.
Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.
Because he ...
He doesn't need another deck. Also, in the above list I don't see many ABUR duals with "tap: add either B, R or G" nor the appropriate fetches. Instead of purchasing USD 1500 manabase, maybe it is wiser to sell the USD 1500 non-lands.
Exactly.
While "Swamp, Drit, Drit, Mind Twist" devastates both hands and "Tomb (18), Mox, Drit, Monolith, Adn -> Monolith, Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, etc. (0)" is pretty risky, something with Mind Twist, Sol lands and artifact mana, (esp. the Grim Monoliths) might work better. But in fact I think it'll be bad.
Wizards wants it so the only playable planeswalkers in both formats are sassy black chicks.
We seem to have a completely different idea of decks being dead. For me, a deck dropping below a certain % of the average field, is considered dead or we would have to consider Pros Bloom still a deck if you T8 your local 4 rounder.
Don't try to explain me my Euro metagame. Goblins see only fringe play since WotC startet to print single-card powerhouses which make tribal strategies pointless. Goblin took a serious hit from the Miracles-mechanic and SFM->Batterskull and not because of TNN. Loam because of Surgical Extraction/DRS/RIP and not because TNN has Protection from Punishing Fire.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Gobbos largely ignore terminus btw
I see your T1 Ad Nauseam and raise you:
T1 City of Traitors, Mox Diamond discarding land, Metalworker. (now you Ad Nauseam) T2 City of Traitors sacrificing city of Traitors, Tap Metalworker to reveal 2 artifacts, Grim Monolith, Mind Twist for X=9 on turn 2. So much for your Ad Nauseam draw!
I agree that there is no need for Modern to be like Legacy. My problem with the format is the manner in which they do bannings. If they did bannings like this in other formats, whatever deck is the "best deck" would have something banned every 3 months. It just doesn't make sense.
I think if Mind Twist sees play, it'll be in decks like MUD or Elves; that is, decks that can produce a fair amount of mana to fuel Mind Twist but don't rely on card disadvantage (i.e. one-shot rituals) to do it. Of course, they won't be pulling it off turn 1.
Also a greybeard here. I agree with most of your other assessments, but I think this one is way off. In a format where people can get below 4 cards in the first couple turns, you have to play it early for it to be effective, which means you have to run 4 copies. Thing is, every copy you draw past the first is completely dead in most cases. Most highly aggressive decks in this format can't afford dead draws at all.
Vice might make Stasis viable. It might see play in a Burn variant alongside Shrapnel Blast. Neither of these is likely to significantly impact the metagame. Vice is safe to come off, imo.
RND are way to triggerhappy. I aggre with the unbans for modern but really banning deathrite without having the other 2s unbanned for 3 months seem wrong. Doubt zoo is gonna come back in full action as an aggro strategi with snapcaster lightning bolt / path to exile in the format. Just gonna be a such up-hill battle.
Yep, that's what I thought about. But in Elves you won't be firing Twist before turn4 (maybe turn3 with very powerful initial hand) and by that time it can be pretty irrelevant (unless you think of it as a Big Cabal Therapy to protect Natural Order). In MUD you may play pretty devastating Mind Twist as soon as turn3, maybe even turn2. Is this viable? And is this better than the "DRit, DRit, AdN" scenario?
I'm not ven guessing what cards should go out to make room for Twist because I never played Elves and I sold MUD stuff two years ago.
There are currently 641 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 641 guests)
Reply With Quote