All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

Mind Twist will most likely be completely broken a burning wish deck. That's at least, what I'd build for it.

Mind's Desire and Yawgmoths Bargain should never come off. The thing about Minds Desire is that, legacy doesn't have a restricted list, which means that you can play 4 of them. That means you can desire into desire, which means you actually get to play your entire deck, as soon as you go off.

Minds Desire I agree with. Bargain I disagree with, Mind Twist would be pretty dope as a wish target in like a Burning Wish Loam deck or something like that I agree. I really miss playing Burning Wish...

[Dzra]

There's a lot that could be unbanned. The only thing I can think of that might actually be worth unbanning is Survival of the Fittest. Assuming it doesn't break the format (which I don't think it will), it is probably one of the few cards on the list that might add something positive (ie fun and/or diversity) to the format.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that unbanning SotF would cause a re-establishment of TNN.dec within the format. Either that or just continue to be a broken card. It's disgusting how good it truly is. I would go back to miracles and maindeck RIP and helm + E. Tutor again.

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[Lemnear]

Minds Desire I agree with. Bargain I disagree with, Mind Twist would be pretty dope as a wish target in like a Burning Wish Loam deck or something like that I agree. I really miss playing Burning Wish...

You can play Deathcloud in Burning Wish Loam which is a lot more devastating than Mind Twist in turn 4+.

Desire and Bargain are insanly powerful because, unlike Ad Nauseam, you actually can and want to play 4. Even if those two are less retarded than Necro, I do not see them coming off. Would be still interresting to see them unbanned after the bazillion of hate-cards printed against storm.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I would legitimately play legacy again if they unban survival of the fittest. As is it's just too boring of a format for me. I like blue, I just don't want to have to marry it.

[Quasim0ff]

You can play Deathcloud in Burning Wish Loam which is a lot more devastating than Mind Twist in turn 4+.

Desire and Bargain are insanly powerful because, unlike Ad Nauseam, you actually can and want to play 4. Even if those two are less retarded than Necro, I do not see them coming off. Would be still interresting to see them unbanned after the bazillion of hate-cards printed against storm.

Bargain >>> Necro, however.

[leegoo]

no way bargain > necro.
3 mana instead of 6 is a world of difference, even with necro's drawback.

[Esper3k]

Especially when the BBB cost of Necropotence fits so nicely with T1, Dark Ritual, Necropotence.

[btm10]

There's a lot that could be unbanned. The only thing I can think of that might actually be worth unbanning is Survival of the Fittest. Assuming it doesn't break the format (which I don't think it will), it is probably one of the few cards on the list that might add something positive (ie fun and/or diversity) to the format.

I'd actually add Black Vise to the "might be worth it" list. Burn has been just a hair too slow for years, and while I don't think it's the deck I'd choose first to make top tier, I think more actually viable decks is good no matter what. I'm not sure that Vise will push it over the edge, but it might. At worst it does nothing, at best it's multiple Bolts. If Burn becomes a real thing, then we can maybe (maybe!) talk about Necro or Bargain since Burn makes them less problematic.

Mind's Desire as a 4-of would make High Tide insane at the very least and would very likely span a new horrendously degenerate storm deck.

Obviously, I'm on board with unbanning Survival as well for the reasons that I and others have already stated.

[Rush80]

Thank You for your comments...

Nevertheless, I am looking for a 60-card decklist which includes one of the card above and beats an average a Legacy DTB.

[kusumoto]

Every time I see the word Survival in this thread I stop and move on to the next post. It makes it so much more bearable.

[carefulmug]

Mind Twist would be pretty dope as a wish target in like a Burning Wish Loam deck or something like that I agree.

I agree with the more recent notion that Twist would lose efficacy as the game went on (turns 4+).

Of the current decks, the one deck I see abusing Mind Twist (ie, it being better than a Hymn) would be a Non-Pod version of Nic Fit.

I would love to play that.

[btm10]

Thank You for your comments...

Nevertheless, I am looking for a 60-card decklist which includes one of the card above and beats an average a Legacy DTB.

Beats with what consistency? Beats what deck? There's a lot in the DTB forum right now. Pretty much any Storm deck you can brew that isn't awful will beat Jund 2-out-of-3 games (so in a match) greater than 50% of the time, and that's probably true of the same deck beating Shardless BUG. Furthermore, just giving a decklist that uses banned card X and beats an arbitrary "deck to beat" at a good clip doesn't say anything about the way in which the rest of the decks in a given meta are affected, how many people decide to play a given deck or card, and most importantly, whether the list proposed is even optimal or close to optimal.

Speculative discussions based on a card's past performance, analogies to other formats, and the current shape of the meta are the best tools to assess a card's potential for unbanning because they're the nearest thing we have to natural experiments. Asking for a specific decklist to justify a B/R change suggestion is like asking candidates for political office for specific policy details: it gives the appearance of wanting a more serious discussion while ignoring the fact that such a discussion requires information that isn't available and cannot be obtained and is meaningless as a result.

I think this thread has the potential to not degenerate into name-calling and pointless rehashing of the same complaints, so I'm all about raising the level of debate here. I think Arsenal and HSCK have done an admirable job in doing that regarding True-Name Nemesis. The same thing cannot be achieved with the cards you mentioned because they have been banned for so long, but calmer, more rational discussion is the answer, not demanding decklists created in a vacuum to support a point.

[nedleeds]

Two scenarios:
1. The card does nothing
2. The amount of horrible games increases

Why bother? The card would never actually contribute positively to the format's health or increase the number of actually fun games.

Same could be said of Delver. I'll take being on the draw vs. Vise rather than delver, at least if they pressure me into Daze my hand size decreases and Vise eventually becomes Bone Flute. Also if I mulligan it gets shitty, where as mulliganing vs. Internet.Delver.75.dec on the draw is an almost certain loss.

I would think a burn deck wouldn't even play Vise. There are more than enough bolts to fill your stupid deck and it's a god awful top deck. The vise would be be used in non chalice prison decks ... of which we currently see almost none.

[btm10]

I would think a burn deck wouldn't even play Vise. There are more than enough bolts to fill your stupid deck and it's a god awful top deck. The vise would be be used in non chalice prison decks ... of which we currently see almost none.

Both good points. I don't know if Vise would make a non-Chalice prison deck good enough, but it would be worth testing if Vise were unbanned. As for Burn, I think there are a couple of flex slots where Vise might be worth testing. It's not an auto-include, but it might be better than Searing Blood, or something. Clearly, I don't play Burn.

[nedleeds]

Flex slots.

[btm10]

Yes?

[Ellomdian]

Every time I see the word Survival in this thread I stop and move on to the next post. It makes it so much more bearable.

Maybe we can convince the forum admins to implement a filter view. I'm happy to discuss SotF, in much the same way as I like to talk about Balance - you know, the deadpan delivery followed by giggling.

[Gheizen64]

Vise wouldn't be played except 2 decks:

stasis, which would still sucks
and affinity + spheres which would still be hated out easily, but it would be actually an interesting deck (think affinity shell, 4 spheres, 4 thorns, 4 lodestone, maybe 4 thalias)

Mind Twist wouldn't be played except as a burning wish target in hypotetical control mirrors, but even then, a planeswalker is usually a much better mirror breaker.

Dragon = draw games, fix the rule interaction or keep it banned.

Earthcraft = tier 3 combo. Enchantress could be a good deck, but there's so many card that completely kill it i don't ever see it becoming too good.

Survival. This card is insanely strong, however, it also create a definitely non-blue archetype. So, just to see a G (probably GBW) deck get more presence in the format, i'd like it to get unbanned. Keeping DRS untapped make the card so much weaker compared to the old since a lot of decks play T1 hate for Vengevines.

Desire and YWBargain. With more and more storm hate getting printed (latest being the extremely subpar eidolon of great revel, the other being Spirit of the Labyrinth), i honestly think those two cards could get off and create an interesting dinamic for the format, basically slow controllish creatures like SFM would get much less viable, and in turn TNN , cause they apply too little pressure on combo .

Clamp would make Elves! probably the best deck, and by far. Playing it on a board with 2 X/1 is basically a one-sided Time Twister. Too broken. Ironically, if clamp were to give +1+0, it would be a perfectly fine card, probably not even playable except in decks with sacrifice outlets.

Recruiter ruin games cause it waste too much time. It's sherazad 2.0

Alexandria and Academy are probably not even overpowered by today standards (Academy without jewerly would be a very good card and make artifact decks much stronger, but artifact decks would still have 2 problems: extremely strong and cheap hate card against them, and the inability to actually lock out your opponent in the earlier turns, unlike vintage where you have workshop, since Academy on average give 1 mana in an hypotetical legacy list), but they have cost issues. Alexandria is broken on T1 on the draw, really good on T1 on the play, and nothing spectacular every other turn when you consider how much pressure legacy decks can apply and how much you can NOT afford to keep your hand full and not actually play cards. It's extremely anti-tempo. It would be interesting to see decks trying to abuse it, but the card is unbannable due to cost. Which is sad, especially for academy, because there are so many interesting decks it could power.

Mana Vault is "i play ad nauseam T2 consistently". I've tested the card a bit, and if we wanted to get an artifact deck viable, Academy would be a much better unban, if not for the fact it cost a fucking billion dollars.

Jar seems safe. With so many draw 7 at 4 and 5 mana around, and no one being played, i can't see Jar being much better, albeit colorless. No workshop, no jewerly, no academy + jewerly, no Vault (that was crucial for T2 Jar), Welder unplayable, etc...

Mana Drain is another card that would be interesting to see, if control ever needed help. It doesn't, right now.

Fastbond was tested, card is completely nuts. Same goes for Hermit Druid. MM is a mixed bag, but i wouldn't mind trying to put it into the format again to see if it can change something for the better. Most other cards weren't even tested because they were considered too good to be worth actual time to test (jewerly, necro, twister/wheel, will, tinker etc...)

[Ace/Homebrew]

Recruiter ruin games cause it waste too much time. It's sherazad 2.0

Huh?

How does Recruiter take more time than Doomsday? When you cast the card you *should* already know what pile you are making.
Also, if you win the turn you cast him, how is that worse than High Tide?