Defense Grid is not a good replacement for 3sphere. The biggest problem that 3sphere has is that it's a terrible top deck late, which is also true for Defense Grid. The biggest advantage of running 3sphere is that it can win games on its own versus decks that cannot meet the mana requirements. Defense Grid only really protects against counterspells. Your opponent can cast all of his other stuff on their turn.Originally Posted by The Crow's Eye
A good example:
You're playing against Storm.
Option 1 - Play Defense Grid
Your opponent reads it, laughs, and then combos off after you pass the turn.
Option 2 - Play Trinisphere
Your opponent reads it, cries, and then scoops.
Has anyone else tested Prophetic Flamespeaker yet? So far he seems pretty good.
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Prophetic Flamespeaker
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Arc-Slogger
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Moon
3x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain
I feel that the Flamespeaker might be better suited to a Hellbent shell than a Goblin shell, mostly because of his natural aggressiveness and the speed he provides when he is equipped. He also doesn't seem to play well with Moggcatcher as he wants you to keep mana open to use the extra cards, which might put a strain on a Goblin shell's manabase.
In this list Arc-Slogger could easily be either Siege-Gang Commander or Flametongue Kavu. I'm thinking that SCG might be correct and the best option here.
EDIT:
Actually, I think that I do like the Goblin list with Flamespeaker even more than the Hellbent list after testing.
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Moggcatcher
4x Prophetic Flamespeaker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Rakka Mar
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Blood Moon
4x Chrome Mox
3x Trinisphere
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
11x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
Last edited by Zupponn; 05-17-2014 at 05:49 PM.
How do any of these creature discussions not start with 4 x Stormbreath Dragons? Why play all these terrible hill giants? It's a 4/4 hasted un plowable un boltable un decayable planeswalker eating beast.
Because 5 mana are a lot and we desperately need creatures that cost 3-4.
That said, i am a fan of stormbreath and i think it should be in this deck.... unless you are running hte goblin build that is different.
Was it tough casting your Arc Slogger without Seething Song or Koth of the Hammer? I myself find that playing 11 sources of red, not countering SSG and Moxen, is often adequate. I myself favor Stormbreath, mostly because there's lots of white in the local meta. Also, sticking a Jitte on Hound of Griselbrand is a nice way to put your opponent on a clock.
Not really, although a lot of times he just got imprinted onto Chrome Mox. I was actually more surprised that Prophetic Flamespeaker was fairly easy to cast with his 1RR cost.
Hey guys, been testing this list with a lot going on in it. Its been a lot of fun but I don't know if playing painter is just strictly better. Here is the pile:
1Soldier of Fortune
2Instigator Gang
1 Hanweir Watchkeep
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Blood Moon
6 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Plateau
//Sideboard
3 Guerrilla Tactics
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manic Vandal
I'm not 100% sold on the Soldier of Fortunes, and would probably try cutting them for a 4th Flamespeaker or some equipment. Your list would really like a Jitte or SoFI somewhere. They both help Flamespeaker beat down like a boss or give the Recruiter some combat legs as well.
This list has showed up 3-1 a couple times:
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
18 lands
2 Hound of Griselbrand
4 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
18 creatures
4 Blood Moon
1 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
24 other spells
Sideboard
2 Anarchy
2 Boil
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Shattering Spree
1 Sudden Demise
2 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards
If those Hounds were Humans, we get to play Cavern. In addition, I would probably cut the Bonfire of the Damned. However, I'm not sure what Human to play. Lot of options, few good ones.
EDIT:
List of playable humans:
Academy Raider
Archetype of Aggression
Burning-Tree Emissary
Instigator Gang
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Priest of Urabrask
Rakka Mar
The list is identical to the one Caleb Durward talked about in his article:
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-every-format/
According to the comments, there's a guy streaming this deck and another right now.
As for the list itself, I'm not much of a fan of both the light amount of threats the deck can lay down and the use of the Dragonlord, who I've always thought was a bad card for both Dragon Stompy and Legacy in general. I would much rather be casting Moggcatcher or even Gathan Raiders than him.
If Moggcatcher was 1RR fine ... or ETB. But you have to pass. It has to live. You have to untap. You have to spend more mana to activate him. He brings in another small non-evasive thing. It's awful.
nedleeds, what would your 60 or 75 look like?
I agree with you that SBD is the best threat, but have found it difficult to jam more than 1 or 2 into my maindeck...
Well, you have Chrome Mox and I'm assuming you are playing Seething Song. I think 3-5 5 mana spells is fine. If you aren't playing Seething Song or Grim Monolith then it's probably to high of a curve. Last time I played Dragon Stompy was Nashville and I played the full 4 Stormbreath. I also played 4 Caverns, and some games where you don't have a sufficient lock piece (Chalice 1 for example, or a Moon vs. BUG) you can just win with an un-counterable 4/4 Haste that certain decks can't kill or race. BUG can't kill it. Miracles has to Terminus it. It makes mid game songs and extra sol lands not complete bricks.
Mana bases like
8 x sol
4 x cavern
6-8 x mountains
4 x chrommox
4 x ssg
4 x seething song
That's a mana base that is designed to explode on turn one or 2 ... not dick about and play the long game. I think being explosive and lucky with opening hands and dice rolls is the only hope to get 7-8 wins in a 9 round SCG. It's a spoiler deck that is supposed to get a couple free wins out of fast chalice, fast blood moon. I think SBD and other fast hitters are the best bet to close to game as fast as possible. SBD also give you something to do on turn 5 or so if you've just bricked on top decks and drawn land, land, song which any stompy deck is ripe to do.
Have you tested him? If he was terrible, I wouldn't be running him. And I believe that this is the first time I've ever heard of someone complaining about the lack of power Siege-Gang Commander brings to the table.
Besides, Stormbreath doesn't win the game on the spot. There are still many ways to beat him in all of the most common decks. For instance, if they drop a Batterskull, then you just lose unless you pull something else.
Paying seven mana over two turns (assuming your Grey Ogre for 2RR lives) for SGC is awful. If you like it then that's fantastic.
You are playing mogg catcher on a bored that has some sort of prison effect on the bored. All you generally need is one or two triggers to build enough advantage to steal games.
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Moggcatcher is not a stream lined threat like dragons, it is a repeatable tutor that is completely unbeatable if he sticks for a couple turns. Besides cheating in siege gang commander wich is always good, he can bring to the table artifact destruction (tuk tuk scrapper) land destruction (goblin settler, what about destroying their lone basic land under blood moon) , creature bounce (stingscourger, hello emrakul !) , plus other options i could be missing. And you can repeat the above mentioned effects every turn if you are running also a kiki-jiki.
He needs to survive, yes, and this is a problem because he dies to everything. But if he survives he's the best creature possible and let us recover from what opponents could have done before we dropped a lock piece down.
Your opponent is just dead in a couple turns from a SBD? The Batterskull argument is bunk also, your SFM opponent will just get a Jitte to murder your Grey Ogre Tutor. You should kill the SFM or have a Revoker out. If you have the opponent locked under multiple pieces (a moon, a chalice 1) then you just want the hastiest most evasive threat. I don't understand the rationale for messing about with a 4CC 2/2 for a couple turns to start doing damage (assuming they don't revoke him and turn him into a bad hill giant). Enjoy yourselves.
I'm bored of these bad arguments. If the board is locked then just get the fastest, hasted, evasive threat. Why get a slow crappy thing that dies to bolt / swords / everything? If you just have moon he still dies to bolt. If they snuck a shaman through he dies to plow / disfigure. They can cast revoker with mountains. Seems awful.
Opponent dead in a couple turns to stormbreath dragon ? I don't know your math , but it is 5 turns to actually kill opponent. During this time , i can guarantee moggcatcher would have done a lot more work than stormbreath.
Other problem is stormbreath costs 5 not 4, and playing seething song sucks. First turn ancient tomb, simian spirit guide, seething song, dragon..... take a force of will and you just lose. I don't like to lose like a belcher deck when i face a counterspell.
Mind that i actually like stormbreath dragon, but i think 4 of him in the deck with 4 seething songs just make a too much all-in deck.
I understand the problems with moggcatcher, but i think you are greatly undervaluing him. As i said, he can answer pretty much everything, and with him we can play also a controllish game instead of going only aggro - mode. He just makes the deck more flexible. He will never die to umezawa's jitte because you should be able to activate him to blow up jitte before opponent is able to attack with an equipped creature. He will die to bolt and plow, but we played a lot of creature like rakdos pit dragon which died to removals, and opponent will not always have counters for your chalice at one and removals to kill every threat you drop.
Having a giant unkillable beater is fantastic, but i don't think now we should dismiss every other option because of this. Mostly because this beater costs 5 and not 3-4.
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