In hindsight, or in future events, what if anything would you do to shore up this matchup?Originally Posted by Jables237
I think the best sideboard hate is ensnaring bridge. It can be useful against other decks because it is very easy to empty our hands with chrome mox and mana monkey. Not sure really what I would take out for it though. Maybe tormod's crypt and we can bring in bridge vs dredge/lands/reanimater? That doesn't seem too terrible.
Bridge seems OK, or some other random monster like Ashen Rider or Phyrexian Ingester might also work.
How come there were no Cavern of Souls in here? I could about a dozen or so Humans...not quite tribal but still seems worth it.
Also, how did you like the Hounds and Lodestone Golems? Would you consider adding/subtracting either of those in the future?
I like hounds. They are a little harder to deal with for some decks (aka not STP). Lodestone was kind of a last minute addition. Its can slows down combos and removal spells. Not as hard of a lock as Chalice and trinisphere though. I have been bouncing around 2 and 3 of them. I think the big change I am debating is Going from 1 SoFi 1 Jitte to 2 or 3 Jitte. Double strike jitte wins games. Absolutely wrecks with Flame speaker and makes mana monkeys actually worth casting.
As to Cavern of souls I thought about it. Uncounterable magus seems so good. The deck can have some hard times on the red mana though. Koth and Hounds might be rough but could come out for one of the werewolves I suppose.
You are missing the point, dude. Moggcatcher works because of the consistent turn 1/2 Blood Moon/Magus/Chalice/Trinisphere that fill your opponents deck with blanks. You disrupt then drop a huge threat... who cares if it occasionally dies to one of the very few outs they have in their deck - you can follow up easily and they have to pray to the gods for the very few runner-runner removal/live cards. Koth/Raka/etc. are not going to get the job done fast enough whereas Moggcatcher can not only finish the game 1-2 turns faster (& increase board presence) but also has built in toolbox for your 75 cards (sideboard is key for Moggcatcher builds). Also, almost positive I wouldn't play Moggcatcher if it wasn't a Human - Cavern of Souls has improved this deck drastically both against counters and you WILL have tight land/mana situations where Cavern is required for your "huge threat." If you still don't see it, like most peeps have already recently said, go test yourself. Count me in the boat too who was very pleasantly surprised to see how well Moggcatcher actually performs.
Nice to see this thread is still going strong. I've stepped away from MTG for awhile but remember quite a bit of this Moggcatcher talk back when it started ~2 years ago. Anxious to test Flamespeaker + equipment.
Yo guys,
Moggcatcher stompy 22nd at SCG this weekend!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69789
I would like to know the reason for that single Emrakul in the board. :)
I suppose you can side him in against show and tell, and against painter so that grindstone can't mill your deck.
Awesome!
Only two Caverns seems strange but I'm sure he tested more. I never had issues as four even let you put one on Goblins and one on Humans if need be.
I can only imagine it is not to be too vulnerable to Wasteland
I went 6-2-1 and got 22nd with the Moggcatcher Version at this weekends past SCG.
I didn't plan on writing a report or anything but enough questions have been asked of me so I figured I should put something out there. I didn't take notes so most of this is from my memory so it might be off slightly, but the meat of it is all there. Basically, it's what we already know. People are greedy and this deck punishes that, and if you untap with Moggcatcher, it is insanely hard to lose to anything but a Terminus.
Peter Repp – Manaless Dredge
After getting round 1 deck checked, I won the roll, and lead with a Chalice on 1. Sadly, he was Manaless Dredge and I didn’t have the tools to keep up.
In game 2 I end up pinning him out of his combo pieces with a trinisphere so he had to go on the bridge from below and ichorid plan. I get a Moggcatcher down and the next turn use it Murderous Redcap, which shot itself for 2, killing his bridges then picking off a narco. He scoops when I fetch up a Siege Gang and end his chances of getting through damage or ever having an active bridge again.
Game 3, I keep a literal unbeatable hand with a turn 0 leyline and a turn 1 trinisphere in case he has Reverent Silence but he just scoops to the turn 0 leyline.
(1-0)
Brent Gilmore – Miracles
Sorry, but the miracles and BUG decks all kinda blurred together. I know these wins came down to early blood moons pinning him on colors and chalices on 1 and starting the Kiki + Settler lock.
(2-0)
Brandon Pascal –Imperial Painter
I win the roll and lead with a turn 1 chalice. Thinking I am MUD, he slams down a turn 1 blood moon. My next play is to play a chrome mox exiling blood Moon and he knows things aren’t going to go well. I get a Moggcatcher online and he can’t win though the chalice before it starts raining Siege Gangs.
Game 2, he gets out a Painter and blasts all my now blue stuff and I miss some land drops. He beats me down to 7 before he finds the combo. I don’t think I can win in this board state so I scoop rather than show him emrakul and have him bring in rest in peace.
Game 3, I turn 1 a chalice and then land a jitte turn 2. He plays a ratchet bomb and blows it to kill the chalice, but a flamespeaker with a jitte makes quick work of him as his ensnaring bridge can never stop the equipped flamespeaker.
(3-0)
Josh Yonika - BUG Delver
Again, I don’t remember 100% of the specifics on the game other than him countering a lot of blood moons. I know in game 1 he stopped 3 blood moon effects and beat me with a goyf. I won game 2 with him having 3 unflipped Delvers in play. And he won game 3 with me being one mana short of -2ing Koth to play a Seige Gang and throw 2 goblins at his only 2 creatures and take over. Close games all around but sometimes they just have the tools to stop your powerful turn 1 plays.
(3-1)
Jonathan Morawski - RUG Delver
I lock him in game 1, and also in game 2 but he manages to draw 3 bolts to finish me off. In game 3 I end up keeping a slower hand but it has a turn 0 Leyline and a Turn 1 chalice. I reason that he can’t really do anything if the chalice resolves and when it does, he ends up putting up a fight. With them only having Goyfs, Delvers, Bolts and Mongooses as ways to win, he couldn’t put up an offense.
(4-1)
Reid Duke – Miracles
I walk up to the board and see I am playing one of the best players in the world and it’s one of my worst match ups. Fortunately, I get a bit lucky and catch him off guard in game 1. I get a blood moon down and Moggcatcher and start going hard at his colored sources. I am able to cut him off of blue quickly and dodge the terminus long enough for a Seige Gang to come down.
In game 2, another blood moon and natural settler keeps him off of white. He has manipulation but ends up never finding a plains before Koth comes down with a few other weenies to push through the needed damage.
Side note: He really is the nicest man in magic. He was asking me about the deck in a friendly manner, being very cordial about everything and was smiling when he was being chain stone rained. You can’t ask for more out of an opponent. But he still went beyond that and flagged down Andrew Shrout saying I should be featured on Camera. Shrout goes one further and puts me in a feature match and gives me a deck tech. You can see that at http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...gcatcher_.html
(5-1)
Erik Smith - Esper Deathblade
You can watch this one on the SCGLive Twitch channel archives at around the 30 hour and 30 minute mark. Basically it boils down to him thoughtseizing me after a mulligan and him finding his 3rd land the same turn I found a krenko which let him clique me and I never find another threat. Game 2 was me just locking him out and beating him to death with 2 flamespeakers (The announcers do correctly call me playing around dismember, which is something you need to remember when you are under blood moon). In game 3, I keep because of the density of threats and knowing that chalice on 1 and moggcatcher will win the game against anything he can do. But he tops the Lilly and I am a turn too late to start racing. Fun Fact: He said after the game that he did forget about the chalice when he played thoughtseize, and it ends up being the food for the deathrite.
There just is not a reasonable mono-red answer to True Name Nemesis. All I can say is “Dear Wizards. Please print a pyroclasm with a no damage prevention effect.”
(5-2)
Lloyd Kurth –Shardless BUG
We trade games one and two based on if he deals with blood moon. In game 3, neither of us do much. He ends up beating me down with some mediocre creatures like strix and deathrite, but I eventually stabilize behind a few crappy guys of my own and a Koth. The Strix is keeping Koth from making my mountains into pingers, but I eventually drop a siege gang. The next turn I -2 koth to have 12 mana and I throw my board at his head to kill him.
(6-2)
Thomas Smiley – American Delver
Neither of us are in a place to top 8 and 9th-32nd gets the same, so we just handshake it and lock both of us in the 9th-32nd pay bracket. I kinda wished I could have played it out just so I could jump into the top 16 lists, but let’s be real here.
(6-2-1)
Overall a pretty solid day. I wish I could have won that camera match but sometimes they draw the right card and you don’t. It happens. Still working on the list moving forward. Not sure exactly what to do right now. Rabblemaster seems promising and hopefully Khans brings some tools.
I know every legacy deck is improving as it gets more and more cards, but this one has one of the best chances to improve. Due to the low power level of some of the cards, they could be cut for better cards really quick while I don’t expect other decks to be replacing their threats any time soon.
And Yes, the Emrakul is for Show and Tell and Painter. I play online a lot and respect Painter. I think it’s greatly underplayed and having 1 sideboard spot be a marginal downgrade against show and tell for having a trump card in an otherwise even-ish match seems worth it to me.
As for the Caverns, I am still not sure of the right number. I am thinking it might be 3, but not having an actual red for blood moon does hurt, and with caverns, you are less likely to cast all the double red spells on time.
Congrats for the result ! I'll watch the feature match as soon as i can.
I actually like one emrakul in the side, because painter basically can not win against him without grave hate. Well, they can win against show and tell decks thanks to the beatdown plan together with 6+ REBs, but that plan is not realistic against us.
When i was testing a moggcatcher build similar to yours, 4 cavern of souls were too inconsistent, so i agree with playing two. I would play four cavern only on a mono-creature type deck, but you are casting double red humans as well as double red goblins and double red spells.... so i probably won't even go up to 3 caverns.
Congrats and thank you for the report!
How often did Cavern matter on Sunday? I agree 4 messes with the mana base too much, but I question if 2 is enough to see them when you need them... Are Caverns really necessary?
I started 4-0 @ a StarCity Open almost 2 years ago (then went 0-2-1) with Moggcatcher and Caverns was the MVP - think my tourny report is many pages back.
I get the argument that more basics could be better. But with 8 Moon effects and only having 2 creature types (3 if you run Revoker), the upside seems way better. I even remember beating a combo deck by putting Cavern on Construct and casting a Phyrexian Revoker that locked him out of his combo (he flashed me a counterspell after the game) until I could get in there for the win.
HOWEVER, this was all pre-Flamespeaker (the RR human) so that probably comes into play. Theorycraft away but no inclusion sounds like madness to me.
AND thanks, ZTurgeon, for the write-up!! Gratz again!
It's entirely on Flamespeaker. With 8 Double Red Humans and 5 Double Red Goblins, the caverns can be a bit of a liability at 4. Heck, 2 of the games during this event I needed to make a decision between the two as I sad with both in hand.
That said, when m15 comes on MTGO, I will be testing Rabblemaster for this reason. It's not as good of a card as Flamespeaker but it kills really quickly, especially in multiples and is better on the mana. Also, it has more of a possibility for the turn 1 slam against some slower decks.
Well, unfortunately including rabblemaster in place of flamespeaker doesn't address the fact that moggcatcher is still a human and still costs double red. If only moogcatcher was a goblin ... (but then it would be a bit too good)
Cavern should be on Human probably 80% of the time. Dropping an uncounterable Magus of the Moon is one of a handful of turn 1/2 plays (others being chalice/trinisphere/etc.) that makes or breaks this deck. So following up with an uncounterable Moggcatcher is a good thing. It's just gravy that the "goblin" stompy runs only two creature types so in those rare circumstances you can have an uncounterable goblin.
If red is really that much of an issue for your stompy deck, you probably aren't making good enough use of Blood Moon. Rabblemaster being a single red should be no problem at all... most people don't have issues with Koth at 2RR especially with many lists running Spirit Guides.
I am starting to test the starcity version you played. I like the moggcatcher version.
I have some suggestion/question, did you test sandstone needle instead of city of traitors mainly for access to RR for flamespeaker/koth.
I am prefering a four of koth in the place of trinisphere ; is trinisphere really worth it ?
Why no pyrokinesis in side ? It seems to be one of the best card to me for the side. Are leyline of the void really worth it ?
Isn't grafdigegr's cage just a better card ?
If you drop an uncounterable magus then moggcatcher will be counterable because cavern is a mountain. Beside this, i think it is a matter of consistency. Sometimes you will use spirit guides to power out turn one trinispheres. Sometimes you will be unable to hardcast siege-gang commander because you put a cavern on human to deploy a moggcatcher than then got killed. Sometimes you will put cavern on goblins to cast rabblemaster turn one then be unable to cast moggcatcher.
All in all, i value the possibility of being able to always cast my spells more than the raw power of cavern of souls. Cavern is a very good card and i would run 4 of it in a mono creature type deck, but if we are running humans and goblins and planeswalkers i think it is absolutely wrong to run 4 caverns, and i'm leaning to run 2 of them rather than 3.
Question for those who have played more of this archetype than I: if I don't have access to a Goblin Settler, what is the best tribe for this archetype? Goblins, werewolves, dragons, etc?
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