[Deck] Goblins

[GoboLord]

What's your current WInstigator list?

This is what I believe a monored Winstigator build should look like right now.
As cooljets already pointed out, our lists are hardly different, except for the lands and the SB, which is due to the splashcolor.

MANA [22]
4 Caverns
3 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox
12 Mountain

CORE [34]
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Winstigator
4 Piledriver
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki

METASLOTS [4]
1 Krenko OR Siege-Gang
1 Gempalm OR Stinger OR Sparkmith
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Warchief

SIDEBOARD [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
8 Meta-slots, possible cardchoices are:
Relic of progenitus
Thorn of Amethyst
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Dismember (vs. Death & Taxes)
Sulfuric Vortex (vs. Control and Punishing Fire)

[jrw1985]

This thread has inspired me to go out and play tonight! If you're in Minneapolis head down to the Monster's Den and let's get their Thursday night Legacy to fire.

Thank you for the thorough explanation, the inconsistencies were a thought of mine as well. What about all basics plus the caverns or even all basics? Has anyone tried negating all non-basics from their lists.

I'm seriously considering a Wasteless, Portless build. I think colorless lands might be suboptimal against Tier1 decks, so I'm going to try a different approach.

I strongly agree, though I do want to ask about Goblin Skycutter. The reason he has not been play-tested is simply because he is too narrow, are you implying the assumption is wrong? I don't mean to belittle your argument, I'm actually curious. It seems to me that it only bothers Delver of Secrets and Vendilion Clique. On the assumption it is for the former is your implication that we simply need to make the Delver match-up better? I mean, I could understand that, as Delver appears to be a large portion of the Top 8's. I just want to know your thinking. Or maybe I read too far..

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek and that doesn't always come across well in text. I was just picturing someone jamming 4 of those fuckers against any Delver deck and just crushing dreams. Aside from Delver the only other application that seems at all decent (though quite fringe) is taking away flying from Grizz, Emrakul, or Merrit Lange, which might actually be worthwhile. I'll test it.

Has this bad boy been given any serious thought?



It has the same draw backs as other goblins (needs haste, is a lightning rod) but there are many upsides.

I have played with Sparksmith before and he can be pretty baller. I have a build in mind that I'm about to try with him again.

Jrw1985 articulates the problems with goblins extremely well and can be summed up by these two major points.
1) Our early plays can get nullified too easily by DRS, SFM, and Goyf.
2) Our land base of Port/Waste can be a liability instead of an asset in a DRS world.



However this is where I strongly disagree, the thread has gotten stale because people are not play testing at all or simply don't have a clear grasp of whats going on. The more experienced players like JRW seem to know exactly what the decks strengths/weaknesses are, however no one on here is seriously trying to address these issues. I get on here and every week or so and see the same bullshit I always see. Some lame deck list that went 3-1 at there local FNM. Extremely low amounts of innovation.

I have had the chance to play a few hundred Legacy matches on MTGO these last few weeks and while my list is far from perfect, I am trying hard to address the weakness that Goblins have. I was able to 4-0 several dailies, and several more not listed: http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=fantasy13. I have been working on this list for over four years now, and when it got posted on here, I believe it was referred to as 'someone on drugs' slapped it together. Really? I mean I ran this list up to nearly a 1900 rating on MTGO, and had an older version finishing 18th in SCG LA this year, and another top 4 in 2012. So when people ask why this thread has gotten stale, its because of one or two reasons 1) Too many players don't know whats going on, and keep rehashing there 2006 goblin versions with slight modifications cluttering any progressions, or 2) Too many people just don't care enough to ask questions and really look why certain lists are performing well.

jimmythegreek was trolling and Ace/Homebrew and I both had your back. Results always speak louder than message boards.

As to the thread becoming stale, you're onto something. Innovating is more than just playing newly printed card; it is also reassessing convential beliefs. I've been contemplating a change to the decklist which I'm about to implement for my tournament tonight (if the tourney happens).

[GoboLord]

I just want a Goblin that costs R, cantrips, cheats cards into play, has an attacking bonus, taxes your opponents spells, can be played for free Turn 0, is a Shatter-on-a-Stick, gives me a 10 inch dick and billion dollars US. That's not asking for too much now, is it?

To think that some people find this thread would lack innovation...
Seriously, what is up with this "make-a-new-card" talk? What about playing the ones we have first?

//EDIT:

I am refferring to Chrome Mox, Tarfire, Chieftain and Warren Instigator.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Results always speak louder than message boards.

Unless you write in all caps! NOW I AM LOUDER THAN RESULTS!!!!1!!1!1!!1


@ cooljets
List was fine! I've used Chrome Mox/WInstigator lists frequently in the past.
I didn't come across any combo, so the Therapies and CotVs sat in my sideboard the entire night. Based on the decks I played against, was that correct of me?
Half the time I took out Lackeys on the draw and put some combination of Settler/Wort/EWS in. It always felt real clunky to do that though. The other half I would swap a copy of Tuktuk for a Sharpshooter.
Perish would have been nice to have against Maverick and I often wanted more Gempalms.

I had never used Settler in Legacy before (but have one for EDH). He was amazing against Miracles. Pretty sure I cast the same one 3 times.
It has been a while since I ran the little green men. It was fun to use them again.

[ScatmanX]

Omg. This last page on the thread has been one of the best ive seen in quite a while. Thanks a lot guys. Really.
Ill be back to posting more once my laptop is fixed.
And now i really want some goblin settlers... fuck

[GoboLord]

And now i really want some goblin settlers... fuck

Holy moly...this card costs 35$/€ per copy. I guess we are onto something :-D Or did he always cost that much?

[LeoCop 90]

Always cost that much, not because of power level but because it's from portal, and all cards from that stupid set cost millions more than they should.
I have one settler, bought to complete my goblins collection, but i never played it in legacy, and i would like to avoid buying others.
I think a one of settler could be good as a tutor target and allowing the possibility of completely manascrewing opponent via settler+kiki-jiki. Playing 2 seems a bit lackluster to me, since we already have matron so there is a very small difference between playing one or 2. The thing is if we want to play 3-4 to consistently see them in the opener and go lackey or winstigator cheating in a turn 2 settler. But it seems really clunky.... how could we play 4 ringleaders+4 settlers ?

On another topic : how do winstigator list fare against aggressive openers from delver decks? Things like mongoose + goyf , or double goyf have always been a problem but were somewhat manageable thanks to mogg war marshal in combination with gempalm incinerator. Now the lists you posted completely drop war marshal and play at best one gempalm. Also tarfire pumps goyf. The only things that can handle a goyf seem to be the 1of warren weirding and stingscourger. At least i would like some perishes in sideboard. I don't know, maybe i'm just paranoid, but i would like to hear experiences against goyf from winstigator players.

[cooljets]

Unless you write in all caps! NOW I AM LOUDER THAN RESULTS!!!!1!!1!1!!1


@ cooljets
List was fine! I've used Chrome Mox/WInstigator lists frequently in the past.
I didn't come across any combo, so the Therapies and CotVs sat in my sideboard the entire night. Based on the decks I played against, was that correct of me? Half the time I took out Lackeys on the draw and put some combination of Settler/Wort/EWS in. It always felt real clunky to do that though. The other half I would swap a copy of Tuktuk for a Sharpshooter.

Yes, I wouldn't bring in Therapy/CotV against D&T or Merfolk. I also wouldn't have boarded Settler or EWS vs them either, although trading Stingscourger or 1 Tuktuk for Wort would likely be optimal.

Always cost that much, not because of power level but because it's from portal, and all cards from that stupid set cost millions more than they should.
I have one settler, bought to complete my goblins collection, but i never played it in legacy, and i would like to avoid buying others.
I think a one of settler could be good as a tutor target and allowing the possibility of completely manascrewing opponent via settler+kiki-jiki. Playing 2 seems a bit lackluster to me, since we already have matron so there is a very small difference between playing one or 2. The thing is if we want to play 3-4 to consistently see them in the opener and go lackey or winstigator cheating in a turn 2 settler. But it seems really clunky.... how could we play 4 ringleaders+4 settlers ?

1 Settler (probably in the sideboard) should be plenty. It allows us to tutor one up games 2 and 3 when needed with the possibility of going infinite with Kiki-Jiki without gumming up our hands in other matchups when Wasteland should be enough.

[cooljets]

On another topic : how do winstigator list fare against aggressive openers from delver decks? Things like mongoose + goyf , or double goyf have always been a problem but were somewhat manageable thanks to mogg war marshal in combination with gempalm incinerator. Now the lists you posted completely drop war marshal and play at best one gempalm. Also tarfire pumps goyf. The only things that can handle a goyf seem to be the 1of warren weirding and stingscourger. At least i would like some perishes in sideboard. I don't know, maybe i'm just paranoid, but i would like to hear experiences against goyf from winstigator players.

Yes, as mentioned, we do have Weirding and Stingscourger, but more often than not, I tend to just take the beats (or chump, if really necessary) until I reach critical mass and swing for the win. Getting SGC, multiple Piledrivers, or almost any combination of goblins with Kiki-Jiki tends to swarm the Goyfs and end the game without actually needing to permanently remove them.

[GoboLord]

J
I have had the chance to play a few hundred Legacy matches on MTGO these last few weeks and while my list is far from perfect, I am trying hard to address the weakness that Goblins have. I was able to 4-0 several dailies, and several more not listed: http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=fantasy13

I want to discuss one iteration of your list here.

Mana (23)
4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
7 Fetchlands
2 Pendelhaven

Creatures (28)
4 Lackey
4 WInstigator
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Chieftain

2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Settler
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger

Spells (9)
4 Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard (15)
3 Thalia
1 Spirit of the Labyrith
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Karakas
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wear/Tear
1 Zuran Orb


As you can see (when comparing our decklists) we share a lot of ideas:
* the thought that mana denial is overrated
* the neccessaity of WInstigators
* Chieftain > Warchief
* cheap and reliable removal (Tarfire/Pyrokinesis)
I assume the idea behind the latter two points (plus taking Pendelhaven into consideration) is to get your guys past untapped Squires.

There are a few cardchoices I don't understand though, some of which I have tested and discarded.

(1) Pendelhaven
I assume that the idea is to pump your guys to push ypur 8 Lackeys past squires and to keep up aggression. For me this hasn't proven to be effective. But on the other hand I only played two tournaments with them and only 1 copy instead of 2. Can you go into detail about why you chose to run 2 Pendelhavens?

(2) No Chrome Moxen
I believe that Chrome Mox is just the right card for the deck right now. Even more so when you are running Winstigators and cut Warchiefs to 0 copies. Have you tested them? I can clearly see that their card-disadvantage would add up to Pyrokinesis and I can also see that Pyrokinesis is an absolutely powerful card right now. Is that the reason why you chose not to run Chrome Moxen, i.e. are you playing Pyrokinesis > Chrome Moxen so to speak?

(3) Red Elemental Blast
My impression is that this card is applicable to a lot of MU, but not really worth boarding in any of them. What are your reasons to play REB?

(4) Zuran Orb
I don't see this card coming in against any deck. It might be a choice against Storm and Burn, but I don't see the advantage of Zuran Orb compared to Chalice of the Void. Maybe I'm entirely on the wrong track, can you explain?

[LeoCop 90]

Just came to my mind that another card not to forget may be restoration angel. I know someone played with it, but the more i think about it the more i like it. It ends the game with kiki-jiki, it blinks ringleaders/ matrons/ scrappers/ stingers or any goblin in response to removal, it flies over true name nemesis, it profitably blocks every flier in the format (delver, serra avenger, flickerwisp,vendilion clique, misthollow griffin XD ) apart from tombstalker and griselbrand/emrakul, it is immune to bolt and decay. Overall, it seems to have potential .... i will need to try it myself.

I don't think though it is well suited for instigator lists because they are more focused on explosiveness and removing blockers. It may be an all star in the grindier games of classic lists for all the reasons i listed.

[Zupponn]

Always cost that much, not because of power level but because it's from portal

Actually, not Portal, but Starter 1999, which I believe makes it rarer.

I think a one of settler could be good as a tutor target and allowing the possibility of completely manascrewing opponent via settler+kiki-jiki.

Some people in the Dragon Stompy thread have been using Moggcatcher to assemble this combo for a while now. From my personal experience, I never was impressed with it in DS. It might be a bit better here though. I can't say.

Just came to my mind that another card not to forget may be restoration angel. I know someone played with it, but the more i think about it the more i like it. It ends the game with kiki-jiki, it blinks ringleaders/ matrons/ scrappers/ stingers or any goblin in response to removal, it flies over true name nemesis, it profitably blocks every flier in the format (delver, serra avenger, flickerwisp,vendilion clique, misthollow griffin XD ) apart from tombstalker and griselbrand/emrakul, it is immune to bolt and decay. Overall, it seems to have potential .... i will need to try it myself.

I don't think though it is well suited for instigator lists because they are more focused on explosiveness and removing blockers. It may be an all star in the grindier games of classic lists for all the reasons i listed.

You would also get the Kiki-Resto infinite combo though.


Anyways, I took a list from the OP and added Eidolons to the main. Here's what I tried:


4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Chieftain
3x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Goblin Warchief
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Stingscourger
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

4x Tarfire
4x AEther Vial
3x Chrome Mox

4x Cavern of Souls
11x Mountain
4x Wasteland


Sideboard:

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Confusion in the Ranks
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Stingscourger
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Boartusk Liege


The mana issues from the first try were pretty much solved here, but a bigger problem seems to have come up against Tarmogoyf as I was running it against Canadian Thresh. With this particular list, Goyfs get very big very fast as you add both an Enchantment Creature and a Tribal Instant to the yard. Eidolon doesn't last very long if it even hits the board against that deck. I think that bringing it out of the sideboard is the better option. I like the looks of something like this:


4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Goblin Warchief
1x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Stingscourger
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

4x Tarfire
4x AEther Vial
3x Chrome Mox

4x Cavern of Souls
11x Mountain
4x Wasteland


Sideboard:

1x Boartusk Liege
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Confusion in the Ranks
3x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Stingscourger
2x Sulfuric Vortex

[ScatmanX]

Just came to my mind that another card not to forget may be restoration angel. I know someone played with it, but the more i think about it the more i like it. It ends the game with kiki-jiki, it blinks ringleaders/ matrons/ scrappers/ stingers or any goblin in response to removal, it flies over true name nemesis, it profitably blocks every flier in the format (delver, serra avenger, flickerwisp,vendilion clique, misthollow griffin XD ) apart from tombstalker and griselbrand/emrakul, it is immune to bolt and decay. Overall, it seems to have potential .... i will need to try it myself.

I don't think though it is well suited for instigator lists because they are more focused on explosiveness and removing blockers. It may be an all star in the grindier games of classic lists for all the reasons i listed.

Resto Angel is indeed awesome. Dont know if the best build is with him, but had some pretty awesome games playing with. All around good card. I recommend trying it.

[mrblueduck]

There are a few cardchoices I don't understand though, some of which I have tested and discarded.

(1) Pendelhaven
I assume that the idea is to pump your guys to push ypur 8 Lackeys past squires and to keep up aggression. For me this hasn't proven to be effective. But on the other hand I only played two tournaments with them and only 1 copy instead of 2. Can you go into detail about why you chose to run 2 Pendelhavens?

The deck struggles against both, SFM and DRS which are the two most played creatures in legacy. The goal of Pendelhaven is to help overcome this problem, while not wasting valuable card slots. I was able to swap out my two Rishadan Ports and try them out, and I was quite pleased with the results. This isn't necessarily because Pendelhaven solves all these problems, but also because porting has actually become much worse over the last few months. DRS and SFM combine to make porting a much less effective plan as they can both operate with extremely low land counts. To make matters worse, Goyf, Delver, Top, Snapcaster, Brainstorm, and a few other major players can easily play around port. Its easier to illustrate the difference if you look at the top decks so you compare the effectiveness of Pendelhaven vs Port.

Miracles - Ports are slightly better, but the deck can nearly be operated entirely on a Instant speed basis. Pendelhaven protects from both Snap caster and Venser, so it does have some use.
Elves - Ports are useless and Pendelahaven is fantastic. It forces awkward situations where our opponent can gamble or throw a Nettle Sentinel, DRS, or Dryad Arbor under the bus.
RUG Delver - Ports are pretty useless, as t hey can often operate on one land. Pendelhaven isn't great here, but better. Can avoid trading with Mongoose, play around Rough/Tumble and Fork Bolt/ Firce and Ice. Neither are great, but port doesn't really do much.
BUG- Pendelhaven is so much better, as Port does pretty much nothing against an early DRS or suspended visions. Not only can you force a DRS block, but every deck seems to have 2-3 Disfigures in there SB which you can occasionally play around.
Burn - Port does virtually nothing. Pendelhaven is solid since their creatures are all 1/1 or 2/2. Not to mention Lavamancer only does 2 damage, as does post board Searing Blaze which you can play around occasionally.
Dredge- Port does nothing, unless there hand is extremely poor. Being able to Grow their Nacromeoba to eat your goblin and remove a bridge or to attack over a Zombie token is quite good.

Those are just the most popular decks, that doesn't even really cover decks running SFM where Pendelhaven is just better than port. So I believe the question is: Is Pendelhaven better than a basic land, potential splash color, or another non basic? I have dabbled with MD Karakas, and SB Tower of the Magistrate, and I am not really sold on either, although happy in the right metagame. I however have been quite happy with Pendelhaven and will continue to play a copy or two in future events.

(2) No Chrome Moxen
I believe that Chrome Mox is just the right card for the deck right now. Even more so when you are running Winstigators and cut Warchiefs to 0 copies. Have you tested them? I can clearly see that their card-disadvantage would add up to Pyrokinesis and I can also see that Pyrokinesis is an absolutely powerful card right now. Is that the reason why you chose not to run Chrome Moxen, i.e. are you playing Pyrokinesis > Chrome Moxen so to speak?

I am not an expert on Chrome Mox, so take everything I say with regards to that, but I have tested them lightly. 2-3 years ago I was experimenting with 1 and 2 Moxes in the main and was pretty unimpressed. I have watched several players try them out, and have played the mirror against them numerous times and my opinion hasn't really changed. My thoughts are Moxes adds a lot of unneeded variance to a deck already with an unreasonable amount of variance. Mox is by far the worst top deck you can get, and double Mox openings are vomit inducing. Pro-mox supporters often counter with "well vial is a bad topdeck." Well yes, it isn't very good, but a turn one Vial is by far the best opening you can get ( other than Goblin lackey with Mental Mistep, that opening was messed up). Turn one Vial is so strong, I can not stress this enough. One of my friends who I showed how to play Goblins over the last few months, has watched me play several maches and never understood which I while consistently lead Vial over a turn Lackey. He decided to try this approach and came back to me, and basically said the deck operates so much smoother with that opening line. When you have Vial and Mox in your hand, it just makes Mox look much sillier, since you probably should be slamming the Vial.

And I suppose this is a good time to talk about Pyrokinesis. Everyone is talking about inventing a card that will help Goblins, such as a good two drop, or a 3/1 with pro green, but there is already a card out there that excels at handling some of our bad match/troublesome creatures. What if I told you there is a card that can't be spell pierced or dazed and can kill two delvers, two DRS, a Goyf/ Delver combination, or a board full of Thalia, SFM, and Mother of Runes. Oh and its free to cast, and not a single person on this thread is even playing it in the main board. That would just be asinine right..... When I top 4ed an SCG a few years ago, maindecking Pyro, and it picked up some steam, but has pretty much disappeared. In the online meta, Pyro is even more insane as it can get game 1 wins against both the popular Elves and Dredge decks that were previously unwinnable. Now I don't know if three is the correct amount, but its hard to justify not playing at least one in the MB.

(3) Red Elemental Blast
My impression is that this card is applicable to a lot of MU, but not really worth boarding in any of them. What are your reasons to play REB?

When Cavern of Souls got printed I went from running 4 SB Blasts, to 3, 2, 1, and then finally none. REB/Pyroblast effects became pretty medicore, even though the spell was extremely powerful. So what exactly changed? Well TNN happened. Against TNN Decks Redblast effects are extremely powerful, and although you can't always hit that crafty merfolk there are plenty of good targets in the decks that are running TNN. REB is an extremely solid SB card that is also one of the most versatile against aggro , combo, and control strategies. Plus with moving Pyro to the MB you open up a few SB slots.

(4) Zuran Orb
I don't see this card coming in against any deck. It might be a choice against Storm and Burn, but I don't see the advantage of Zuran Orb compared to Chalice of the Void. Maybe I'm entirely on the wrong track, can you explain?

Zuran Orb is an extremely narrow SB, and I have switched it around between Dragon's Claw, and eventually Jitte. The problem with looking at my SB cards is really understanding context, and this card doesn't seem to make a lot of sense without it. The online Meta is littered with cheap burn decks, and even though they are listed as the second most popular archetype according to sites, they are by far the most popular. These sites only report 3-1+ daily lists, and the dailies are full of the 0-2 burn warriors that don't get factored in. So the SB really wants a card that is good against burn and versatile enough to be effective in other match ups. This is where I came up with Jitte. It is not great, but solid against burn and versatile enough to really impact other match ups, exactly what I am looking for.

[Ace/Homebrew]

mrduck
Can you write a paragraph or two on your experience with Settler?

You are currently running 4 Cavern and 2 Pendelhaven. Have you experimented with a Taiga (cutting a Mountain) and using Tin-Street Hooligan instead of Tuktuk? There seems to be no Warchief drawback since... well, since you aren't running any.

Tuktuk's CMC of 4 cost me at least one game Wednesday night...

[jrw1985]

The damn tourney wasn't. That's fine. More tweaking until next week.

[mrblueduck]

mrduck
Can you write a paragraph or two on your experience with Settler?

You are currently running 4 Cavern and 2 Pendelhaven. Have you experimented with a Taiga (cutting a Mountain) and using Tin-Street Hooligan instead of Tuktuk? There seems to be no Warchief drawback since... well, since you aren't running any.

Tuktuk's CMC of 4 cost me at least one game Wednesday night...

I can do that. I have been a large proponent of Settler for quite some time, and once he was announced in VMA I decided I was going to finally start playing MTGO again. I went ahead and built the deck from scratch initially starting with just one Settler like my paper version. It quickly became apparent that it was out performing its one copy, so I decided to try two and was not disappointed. I have even tried a third copy in the SB over Blood Moon, but it was really hard to tell how much that third copy was really helping, and eventually changed it out for a more diverse SB slot. I guess I should first start with why I think its worth including in a list to begin, and that starts with one of two things : 1) Lands/turbo Eldrazi is gaining in popularity, and 2) The decline of Piledriver. Having access to a tutor-able wasteland, lets you beat Glacial Chasm and the Thespian stage combo. They use Needle to name wasteland, not a problem, you can still set them back with a brutally timed settler. To be honest Tabernacle does very little, but you can hit that too I suppose. Its also quite effective against Enchantress, blowing up Gaea's Cradle, hitting a crucial Grove OtBW and punishing slow control decks like Miracles. Those are all added benefits, the real reason I advocate Settler is the decline of Piledriver.

I have not played Piledriver in over a year and a half. Is that correct? I cant say with 100 percent certainty, but I constantly thought Piledriver was the worst card in the deck, and it wasn't really close. ( The worst card in the list currently is one of the three Goblin Chieftains, and again not really close). Piledriver was in the deck to really punish Combo decks and occasionally Merfolk. It however was quite weak to Zoo builds, and straight up a liability against RUG the most popular deck at the time. Back then the only way to really beat Combo was to simply be as faster then them and Piledriver excelled at that. Yes you can have Chalice, Thorns, Blast, or even Relic out of the SB, but you were still racing them, and it wasn't a particularly a fair race. However that changed with the Legacy GP in Atlanta. A goblin deck broke onto the scene running Main Deck Thalias and ended up top8ing. I originally kind of thought it was a fluke, and was hesitant to change ( my deck was doing pretty well after all, why change?? ), but after testing there was something to the Thalias. It really made me reevaluate what you were trying to do with Piledriver, and presented another option to beating combo, slow them down. At the time my current list provided one turn 3 kill against combo, one exact three card combo ( Lackey, Piledriver, Kiki). However even without a Piledriver in the deck, there were probably hundreds of combinations to assemble a turn 4 kill with Lackey, Instigator, and Matron triggers. So while Thalia is extremely good at slowing them down, it isn't the best main deck card, nor is a tutorable. Thats where Settler really shines. It interacts with Matron/Ringleader because you know, its a Goblin and its a fine maindeck hate card. With this small tweak I found myself winning a much higher proportion of combo matchups, as he was devastating for the slower combo decks like Show and Tell, Omniscience, Doomsday, and High tide, and still solid against the even faster ones such as ANT and the Perfect Storm. It came down to if you cannot speed up your deck to beat combo, you need to slow them down, and Settler was exactly what I was looking for.

I have already said way more then I intended, so I will try to say this extremely brief but there are a few more reasons that the second settler is better than lets say SCG, Krenko, a MD Thalia, or even Grenzo. Understanding exactly what counters you need on your Vial is extremely. extremely important, and having a converted mana cost of 3-4 is exactly what you were looking for. This really devalues SCG, as getting a Vial stuck on 5 is often a huge mistake, and having an underpowered 4 drop can help elevate these issues, as you are not forced to throw away a vial. Anyways, please let me know if you have any other questions.

[Sandro95]

I can do that. I have been a large proponent of Settler for quite some time, and once he was announced in VMA I decided I was going to finally start playing MTGO again. I went ahead and built the deck from scratch initially starting with just one Settler like my paper version. It quickly became apparent that it was out performing its one copy, so I decided to try two and was not disappointed. I have even tried a third copy in the SB over Blood Moon, but it was really hard to tell how much that third copy was really helping, and eventually changed it out for a more diverse SB slot. I guess I should first start with why I think its worth including in a list to begin, and that starts with one of two things : 1) Lands/turbo Eldrazi is gaining in popularity, and 2) The decline of Piledriver. Having access to a tutor-able wasteland, lets you beat Glacial Chasm and the Thespian stage combo. They use Needle to name wasteland, not a problem, you can still set them back with a brutally timed settler. To be honest Tabernacle does very little, but you can hit that too I suppose. Its also quite effective against Enchantress, blowing up Gaea's Cradle, hitting a crucial Grove OtBW and punishing slow control decks like Miracles. Those are all added benefits, the real reason I advocate Settler is the decline of Piledriver.

I have not played Piledriver in over a year and a half. Is that correct? I cant say with 100 percent certainty, but I constantly thought Piledriver was the worst card in the deck, and it wasn't really close. ( The worst card in the list currently is one of the three Goblin Chieftains, and again not really close). Piledriver was in the deck to really punish Combo decks and occasionally Merfolk. It however was quite weak to Zoo builds, and straight up a liability against RUG the most popular deck at the time. Back then the only way to really beat Combo was to simply be as faster then them and Piledriver excelled at that. Yes you can have Chalice, Thorns, Blast, or even Relic out of the SB, but you were still racing them, and it wasn't a particularly a fair race. However that changed with the Legacy GP in Atlanta. A goblin deck broke onto the scene running Main Deck Thalias and ended up top8ing. I originally kind of thought it was a fluke, and was hesitant to change ( my deck was doing pretty well after all, why change?? ), but after testing there was something to the Thalias. It really made me reevaluate what you were trying to do with Piledriver, and presented another option to beating combo, slow them down. At the time my current list provided one turn 3 kill against combo, one exact three card combo ( Lackey, Piledriver, Kiki). However even without a Piledriver in the deck, there were probably hundreds of combinations to assemble a turn 4 kill with Lackey, Instigator, and Matron triggers. So while Thalia is extremely good at slowing them down, it isn't the best main deck card, nor is a tutorable. Thats where Settler really shines. It interacts with Matron/Ringleader because you know, its a Goblin and its a fine maindeck hate card. With this small tweak I found myself winning a much higher proportion of combo matchups, as he was devastating for the slower combo decks like Show and Tell, Omniscience, Doomsday, and High tide, and still solid against the even faster ones such as ANT and the Perfect Storm. It came down to if you cannot speed up your deck to beat combo, you need to slow them down, and Settler was exactly what I was looking for.

I have already said way more then I intended, so I will try to say this extremely brief but there are a few more reasons that the second settler is better than lets say SCG, Krenko, a MD Thalia, or even Grenzo. Understanding exactly what counters you need on your Vial is extremely. extremely important, and having a converted mana cost of 3-4 is exactly what you were looking for. This really devalues SCG, as getting a Vial stuck on 5 is often a huge mistake, and having an underpowered 4 drop can help elevate these issues, as you are not forced to throw away a vial. Anyways, please let me know if you have any other questions.

Interesting post! I would love to read more about how Goblin Settler works in different situations.

Also, I found this deck tech video on goblins. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside...ins-deck-tech/

What are your thoughts on it?

[GoboLord]

Also, I found this deck tech video on goblins. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside...ins-deck-tech/

What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks for sharing.
Unfortunately this guy does hardly anything else than reading out his decklist and the oracle-text of his cards aloud.

He goes all "I am running this and I am also running that...".
I think he managed to avoid the word "because" in the whole video.

Also check out how he tries to say "Emrakul"

Regarding his decklist:
* Grenzo shouldn't be in there, because the card is bad as hell
* When you are playing with Chrome Moxen AND you want a 1W permanent that is good vs combodecks you should be playing Ethersworn Canonist instead of Thalia
* his SB has only 13 cards
* other than that I think the MD is well-built and it wouldn't surprise me if he picked it up on this thread.

[Vandalize]

I'll test a similar cooljets' list. Just minor tweaks.

Mana [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
3 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

Core [28]
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver

Others [10]
4 Tarfire
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Earwig Squad/Ashen Rider
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Warren Weirding
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Differences: +1 Tarfire -1 Tuktuk
Sideboard: +1 Warren Weirding +1 Tuktuk Scrapper +1 Krenko, Mob Boss -1 Wort, Boggart Auntie -1 Stingscourger -1 Earwig Squad.

Krenko is definitely better than Wort. They both require a turn to function (Krenko loses summoning sickness in the upkeep). Krenko can add pressure immediately, while Wort will use mana to cast the recovered Goblin. Wort is better if you want to recover removal, but Krenko can fill the board quickly, at no tempo loss.

Show and Tell is kinda big around here. Earwig Squad is nice, but I probably should be playing Ashen Rider instead. I'll test both.