All B/R update speculation.

[Hopo]

Do we need to discuss the strategic and deckbuilding related difference between being unable to run ANY lands in your deck VS. being "restricted" to non-Basics only?

Oops all spells in it's current form doesn't want this card. It would have to drop the black guys and that's another deck, IMO. That's all I was implying.

[Lemnear]

Oops all spells in it's current form doesn't want this card. It would have to drop the black guys and that's another deck, IMO. That's all I was implying.

Yes and that's strickly misleading to discuss Hermit Druids in the context of this particular deck instead of a suited deck to discuss the cards potential and impact. This is a repeating pattern in this thread :(

[Pastorofmuppets]

Saying it's fine to unban Druid because it wouldn't break one deck is sort of like saying it's fine to bring a gun to a knife fight because a gun isn't sharp.

If you were to bring a gun to a knife fight, you wouldn't be bashing people over the head with the butt.

In other news, I still want MT unbanned.

[thefreakaccident]

Is it wrong I want to ban show and tell? The deck isn't overpowered by any means, but it's mere existence as a deck irks me. Reanimator is potentially even more explosive, but there's a lot more ways to interact. I don't think banning brainstorm would affect the format whatsoever except hurting combo overall, which takes away from the format. It's the cheap threats/kill spells that make this more of a luckbased game anyways.

Oh your hand is filled with cantrips? I'll just kill you.

[(nameless one)]

In other news, I still want MT unbanned.

Miracles.dec

[sjmcc13]

Yes and that's strickly misleading to discuss Hermit Druids in the context of this particular deck instead of a suited deck to discuss the cards potential and impact. This is a repeating pattern in this thread :(

Ya, the problem with discussing unbanning cards is you need to look at not what deck it goes in to (which only matters in an all good stuff.deck meta and those suck) but what decks does it create.
Hermin Druid does not go into Oops, because it lets you run land. Or Fetches and Duals which is enough.
T1: Diamond/ESG/SSG, Trop, Druid with FoW/daze backup.
T2: Win.

[Lemnear]

Miracles.dec

That one is your problem? Carddisadvantage to tutor a Terminus is your issue rather than fetching Ad Nauseam or Show&Tell?

[Megadeus]

The difference between Oops now and that deck with druid is... Well you get to play lands with druid. So yes a deck would definitely spawn. I'm not saying it should be unbanned. I was simply noting that off of Death's list, thos were the only cards with any realistic shot of seeing an unban.

I guess this weekend we only had 6/8 Brainstorms in the top 8 so it's fine right?

[Shawon]

Is it wrong I want to ban show and tell? The deck isn't overpowered by any means, but it's mere existence as a deck irks me. Reanimator is potentially even more explosive, but there's a lot more ways to interact. I don't think banning brainstorm would affect the format whatsoever except hurting combo overall, which takes away from the format. It's the cheap threats/kill spells that make this more of a luckbased game anyways.

Oh your hand is filled with cantrips? I'll just kill you.

This complaint would've been valid two months ago, but now... I have a friend I want you to meet. Her name is Containment Priest. Seriously, if you land her and always keep open, any bounce spell they have for it will be useless since you can just flash her in again. The only realistically way SNeak-Show gets rid of it is with Pyroclasm or counterspells.

[Fossil4182]

Is it wrong I want to ban show and tell? The deck isn't overpowered by any means, but it's mere existence as a deck irks me. Reanimator is potentially even more explosive, but there's a lot more ways to interact. I don't think banning brainstorm would affect the format whatsoever except hurting combo overall, which takes away from the format. It's the cheap threats/kill spells that make this more of a luckbased game anyways.

Oh your hand is filled with cantrips? I'll just kill you.

I actually think banning Brainstorm would hurt decks with control elements (and thereby making S&T and ToA decks better). Being able to leave mana open to cast Brainstorm at instant speed is valuable because it allows decks with control elements to threaten/bluff counter magic and only use their resources when absolutely necessary. Using Sorcery speed cantrips is difficult for control because they either have to accurately evaluate and predict what threats they might see and select cards on that basis. Or it puts control decks behind because they're digging for an answer once the threat has already resolved as opposed to digging at the end of their turn.

I think the intuitive step in a format w/o Brainstorm would be for all decks previously using Brainstorm to move to Ponder and then consider other alternatives for cantrips 5-X (probably starting with Preordain). In a Sorcery speed format, I believe that would favor the combo players as opposed to the control players.

[Lemnear]

I actually think banning Brainstorm would hurt decks with control elements (and thereby making S&T and ToA decks better). Being able to leave mana open to cast Brainstorm at instant speed is valuable because it allows decks with control elements to threaten/bluff counter magic and only use their resources when absolutely necessary. Using Sorcery speed cantrips is difficult for control because they either have to accurately evaluate and predict what threats they might see and select cards on that basis. Or it puts control decks behind because they're digging for an answer once the threat has already resolved as opposed to digging at the end of their turn.

I think the intuitive step in a format w/o Brainstorm would be for all decks previously using Brainstorm to move to Ponder and then consider other alternatives for cantrips 5-X (probably starting with Preordain). In a Sorcery speed format, I believe that would favor the combo players as opposed to the control players.

Can anyone just link to the arguments on this topic like about ten pages back? I'm sick repeating stuff I said like 5 times before within a year just because people come up with the same nonsense every few pages.

In short: it's the opposite

[LOLWut]

Why something will be banned (or alternatively, unbanned) in January:

1. SCG Legacy Opens since Khans on Sep 26: New Jersey, Indianapolis, Worcester, Minneapolis, Oakland, Columbus, Richmond, Atlanta. Attendance with previous recent dates in the same location after:
New Jersey: Sep. 28, 2014- 259 players. May 25, 2014- 426 players. Aug. 31, 2014- 443 players. Down.
Indianapolis: Sep. 28, 2014- 260 players. Jan. 5, 2014- 256 players. Jun. 1, 2014- 347 players. Down.
Worcester: Oct. 19, 2014- 225 players. Jul. 7, 2013- 305 players. Jul. 6, 2014- 290 players. Down.
Minneapolis: Oct. 26, 2014- 247 players. Aug. 4, 2013- 302 players. Down.
Oakland: Nov. 2, 2014- 190 players. Dec. 8, 2013- 226 players. Down.
Columbus: Nov. 9, 2014- 258 players. Jan. 19, 2014- 342 players. Jun. 15, 2014- 450 players. Down.
Richmond: Nov. 23, 2014- 225 players. Last visit way back on Feb. 5, 2012 and got 118 players. No recent dates to compare.
Atlanta: Nov. 30, 2014- 240 players. Mar. 2, 2014- 316 players. Sep. 14, 2014- 263 players. Down.

WotC loves attendance (The Grand Prix will work against this data).

If anyone wants to go back further to see when that started, and speculate on the why based on when it began (and if the reason has to do with things nothing to do with the banned list), go for it, but I started with Khans.

2. WotC takes more notice when prominent tastemakers like SCG writers start writing articles saying that something needs to be banned.


Why something won't be banned (or alternatively, unbanned) in January:

1. There is no clear ban target. Say what you want about Brainstorm and Treasure Cruise; for reasons, they're not clear targets in the way that things like Mental Misstep, Flash, and Survival of the Fittest were. Right or wrong, it'll come down to player sentiment and WotC thinking.

2. WotC takes a very laissez-faire approach to Legacy.

[Lord Seth]

Why something will be banned (or alternatively, unbanned) in January:

1. SCG Legacy Opens since Khans on Sep 26: New Jersey, Indianapolis, Worcester, Minneapolis, Oakland, Columbus, Richmond, Atlanta. Attendance with previous recent dates in the same location after:
New Jersey: Sep. 28, 2014- 259 players. May 25, 2014- 426 players. Aug. 31, 2014- 443 players. Down.
Indianapolis: Sep. 28, 2014- 260 players. Jan. 5, 2014- 256 players. Jun. 1, 2014- 347 players. Down.
Worcester: Oct. 19, 2014- 225 players. Jul. 7, 2013- 305 players. Jul. 6, 2014- 290 players. Down.
Minneapolis: Oct. 26, 2014- 247 players. Aug. 4, 2013- 302 players. Down.
Oakland: Nov. 2, 2014- 190 players. Dec. 8, 2013- 226 players. Down.
Columbus: Nov. 9, 2014- 258 players. Jan. 19, 2014- 342 players. Jun. 15, 2014- 450 players. Down.
Richmond: Nov. 23, 2014- 225 players. Last visit way back on Feb. 5, 2012 and got 118 players. No recent dates to compare.
Atlanta: Nov. 30, 2014- 240 players. Mar. 2, 2014- 316 players. Sep. 14, 2014- 263 players. Down.

WotC loves attendance (The Grand Prix will work against this data).

Interesting stats. But couldn't much of that be blamed on the fact they're running the Modern IQs at the same time, which could be pulling people away from Legacy?

[LOLWut]

Interesting stats. But couldn't much of that be blamed on the fact they're running the Modern IQs at the same time, which could be pulling people away from Legacy?

I believe that's one of the main factors. From a quick look at the post-July (after Modern Premier IQs started) data, I think that marked a dip, but another dip may have happened later on. It's always difficult to discern reasons because of weather and things like that. My gut says that having another big event on the same day took some attendance, and continued feelings about the format, intensified by Treasure Cruise, took some more. I'll try to look at the numbers tomorrow to see if post-Khans locations experienced a bigger drop than post-Premier IQ/pre-Khans locations. All the necessary qualifications about colder weather travel and small sample size will apply.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The difference between Oops now and that deck with druid is... Well you get to play lands with druid. So yes a deck would definitely spawn. I'm not saying it should be unbanned. I was simply noting that off of Death's list, thos were the only cards with any realistic shot of seeing an unban.

I guess this weekend we only had 6/8 Brainstorms in the top 8 so it's fine right?

You get to play lands and not feel like a filthy casual

[FoolofaTook]

I believe that's one of the main factors. From a quick look at the post-July (after Modern Premier IQs started) data, I think that marked a dip, but another dip may have happened later on. It's always difficult to discern reasons because of weather and things like that. My gut says that having another big event on the same day took some attendance, and continued feelings about the format, intensified by Treasure Cruise, took some more. I'll try to look at the numbers tomorrow to see if post-Khans locations experienced a bigger drop than post-Premier IQ/pre-Khans locations. All the necessary qualifications about colder weather travel and small sample size will apply.

If you don't like playing the blue shell or you don't own the necessary staples to do so we're in a particularly crappy time to play Legacy competitively.

Why was Standard down in attendance at the end of the Jace Standard? Because some people didn't like being forced to one archetype and others weren't able to afford the cost of the list. Attendance down.

If you like to play Jund or Junk or Goblins or Zoo, well this isn't the Legacy meta you should be playing in.

[wonderPreaux]

If you don't like playing the blue shell or you don't own the necessary staples to do so we're in a particularly crappy time to play Legacy competitively.

Why was Standard down in attendance at the end of the Jace Standard? Because some people didn't like being forced to one archetype and others weren't able to afford the cost of the list. Attendance down.

If you like to play Jund or Junk or Goblins or Zoo, well this isn't the Legacy meta you should be playing in.

Because Jace Standard is the same as playing Tempo, Control, Combo, DnT, Elves etc... and R/G "turn Creatures sideways deck" is the barometer of health in a format with a 20 yr cardpool?

[Dice_Box]

If you don't like playing the blue shell or you don't own the necessary staples to do so we're in a particularly crappy time to play Legacy competitively.

I am really getting sick of reading this same shitty line over and over. You know what I own? Every deck that has top eighted an SGC event in the last 6 months that is not Infect, Reanimator, DnT or SnT. (Strange left field things not withstanding) I have the Blue cards, I have them all and you know what I have the most fun playing? Painter. A FUCKING RED DECK. Know what I like second? Elves, then R/G Lands. Please, tell me which on of these fucking lists is Blue. Saying the same thing over and over does not make it true. Yes, the Blue shell is every-fucking-where, yes, it is a pain, but that does not mean that you are without effective and fun options. Know what Lands does? Draws 3 cards a turn and beats you to death with a 20/20 (Fuck yea). Know what Painter does? Locks you out of playing the game and punishes you for that 1800 dollar mana base. Know what Elves does? Tinkers, Recalls, plays broken lands and has a hell of a time doing it. Burn say's "Hay I just spent 400 bucks and I am am going to wreck your whole day". DnT says "Your locked out of the house and I stole your keys". Other decks do equally broken things and look good doing it. Wholly shit, it almost sounds like fun non Blue decks for people to play.

Turns out the most crappy things going on at the moment is the shit coming from the lemmings who stick with what they see the "Pros" playing. Yes, turns out its easier to play a deck you you picked up 3 weeks ago and have no practice with if you have half a brain, can remember your triggers and can pick out what cards are best to keep off a brainstorm. Funny thing, Brainstorm is better if you have been playing it for years. Tom Ross proves that. So yes, you can play follow the leader or you can find something that suits you and I personally would ask that you stop telling me how crappy it is to play this game while I enjoy watching U/R Delver sac all his tokens to my Tabernacle. Because I played Goblins for 8 years and I am kind of attached to Red. Turns out it aint that bad to play that if you pick the right deck and practise with it.

In short:
Followers will follow, you want to strike out on your own, go ahead. There are paths to be found and rewards waiting if you do. If you only want to bitch about how horrible this format is, please, take it elsewhere. Because I while I agree that playing Blue is like switching your game to "Easy", being skilled is still something that happens inside the player, not the ink printed on the cards.

I am more than able to own Blue decks and have fun playing Red. So speak for yourself, but I disagree that this is a crappy time to be playing.

[AznSeal]

If you don't like playing the blue shell or you don't own the necessary staples to do so we're in a particularly crappy time to play Legacy competitively.

Why was Standard down in attendance at the end of the Jace Standard? Because some people didn't like being forced to one archetype and others weren't able to afford the cost of the list. Attendance down.

If you like to play Jund or Junk or Goblins or Zoo, well this isn't the Legacy meta you should be playing in.

To be fair, if blue didn't exist, those decks would still be bad.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I am really getting sick of reading this same shitty line over and over. You know what I own? Every deck that has top eighted an SGC event in the last 6 months that is not Infect, Reanimator, DnT or SnT. (Strange left field things not withstanding) I have the Blue cards, I have them all and you know what I have the most fun playing? Painter. A FUCKING RED DECK. Know what I like second? Elves, then R/G Lands. Please, tell me which on of these fucking lists is Blue. Saying the same thing over and over does not make it true. Yes, the Blue shell is every-fucking-where, yes, it is a pain, but that does not mean that you are without effective and fun options. Know what Lands does? Draws 3 cards a turn and beats you to death with a 20/20 (Fuck yea). Know what Painter does? Locks you out of playing the game and punishes you for that 1800 dollar mana base. Know what Elves does? Tinkers, Recalls, plays broken lands and has a hell of a time doing it. Burn say's "Hay I just spent 400 bucks and I am am going to wreck your whole day". DnT says "Your locked out of the house and I stole your keys". Other decks do equally broken things and look good doing it. Wholly shit, it almost sounds like fun non Blue decks for people to play.

Turns out the most crappy things going on at the moment is the shit coming from the lemmings who stick with what they see the "Pros" playing. Yes, turns out its easier to play a deck you you picked up 3 weeks ago and have no practice with if you have half a brain, can remember your triggers and can pick out what cards are best to keep off a brainstorm. Funny thing, Brainstorm is better if you have been playing it for years. Tom Ross proves that. So yes, you can play follow the leader or you can find something that suits you and I personally would ask that you stop telling me how crappy it is to play this game while I enjoy watching U/R Delver sac all his tokens to my Tabernacle. Because I played Goblins for 8 years and I am kind of attached to Red. Turns out it aint that bad to play that if you pick the right deck and practise with it.

In short:
Followers will follow, you want to strike out on your own, go ahead. There are paths to be found and rewards waiting if you do. If you only want to bitch about how horrible this format is, please, take it elsewhere. Because I while I agree that playing Blue is like switching your game to "Easy", being skilled is still something that happens inside the player, not the ink printed on the cards.

I am more than able to own Blue decks and have fun playing Red. So speak for yourself, but I disagree that this is a crappy time to be playing.

So. Much. Win.

Thank you good sir. As someone who has abandoned BUG for Junk, I agree 100%.