I'm inclined to agree. I have more memories of getting a free win with Trinsisphere than I have with Blood Moon, on turn 1. It's also one of the couple of things we can do to beat combo. It's at its actual worst in creature match-ups and is still backbreaking early. I guess now that I'm thinking about it I end up shaving 1 to 2 when I board against those decks, but ultimately our opening hand is far more important than theirs, and I build with that knowledge.Originally Posted by Zupponn
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Ok but versus combo we have already CotV.
CotV stops almost all decks and Moon is often game win in addition to protect us from wasteland.
Trinisphere i don't find most fundamental, it's strong versus counter decks, but then I prefer play Red Elemental Blast or Trap to protect CotV or Moon.
Do not get me wrong, I love Trinisphere, I have play it always, gave the best in the werewolf version for Instigator and I played 4 Avalanche and 3 Stone Rain, so ok I can put it in my side like this:
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Ricochet Trap
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Koth of the hammer
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshoote
But the question is if you consider Trinisphere essential to play in the maindeck
Yes.
Yes, because it is live againat every deck.
Yes, because it plays off our golden mana (2)(r).
Yes, because when it's bad it's still straining their resources to roughly 1 play a turn.
And lastly yes, because I don't think just 4 Chalice of the Void is enough to get around the amount of interaction Force of Will and friends provide. Think redundency.
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I have been personally testing this deck for a few weeks, so I do not have the long term experience that some players have with this deck. I have found, in testing against a variety of decks, that trinisphere is rarely a dead draw, except when I happen to draw it in multiples.
I have also been trying out the goblin verion with imperial recruiters (I have a set, so I figured why the heck not), and while I found that running 4 seems to flood the deck, and cuts down on the number of useful goblins, I have been happy with running 2. They typically act as moggcatcher / magus of the moon #5 & 6; but have also helped me out when trying to hunt up sideboard creatures as well. Granted this is only a few weeks testing and I won't get a chance to try them out in any style of tournament setting until this weekend. In the end, I may end up cutting the rest of my recruiters in favor of more goblins.
I have tested this night without trinisphere. In the side out 3 trinispher for 3 bridge.
I have played versus:
Bug shardless 1-2. Very strange list, in main he played a lot of basic lands and toxic deluge, he wins the last ones with 3 decay. I win with fast rabblemaster. I have side in bridge because Tarmo it's to big for us, but he have decay.
UR delver 2-1. G1 chalice rabble win. G2 side in ratchet bomb but mulligan to 5, Fow on moon, lost. G3 moon, ratchet bomb to 1, moggcatcher win.
Patriot 2-0. Chalice rabble win. G2 side in bomb because he have 4 delver 2 batterskull. Turn1 I play moggcatcher, meddling mage on moon, but it's easy for me.
Affinity 1-2. He started too fast, etched champion and cranial plating. G2 side out moon effect for bridge koth and ratchet bomb. Enter bridge and I win with sgc+koth. G3 He plays 4 spells, I ratchet bomb to 0 reset him, he restarts with 4 spells, I don't see bridge, rabblemaster can't nothing versus 3 etched champion.
So the conclusion is: tonight in which match I needed trinisphere? The reply is only versus affinity.
Ps: rabblemaster it's very very strong, if it enter and the first token not die, it becomes very big. So I'm considering to play taurean mauler, it's also a goblin and seems very good with rabble
Just bought my Moggcatchers and Kiki-Jiki 3:) I'll try only 1 Goblin Rabblemaster in the beginning though, trying to pair the goblin toolbox with Kargan Dragonlords, Stormbreath Dragons and/or 2-3 Prophetic Flamespeakers. (I don't know who plays Engineered Plague, but anyway.) I don't wanna miss 2 Bonfire either.
I've just found/remembered there is a budget oldie from Urza's and 7th: Goblin Gardener, just in case you don't wanna spend 40+ euros/dollars for Goblin Settler.
- cons:
It must be sent to the graveyard somehow (via Jitte, Siege-Gang, Sharpshooter, or surprise blocking through Moggcatcher)
It must reach the graveyard (and not be bounced or exiled, in response)
+ pros:
It has a power of 2, in comparison to Settler.
It also has a 1 toughness (can be easily killed), and can be cast with the same mana (3R).
It's about 10 jugs of beer cheaper.
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
Congrats!
I was an enormous skeptic regarding Rabblemaster because I kept evalutating him from a Vial Goblins standpoint (and because he pre-sold for $5 so it is difficult to pay anything higher than that...). He is arguably the best goblin in this build though.
Ghost Quarter is about 10 jugs of beer cheaper than Wasteland.
Just something to consider... Without a way to sac the Gardener, he's just a Goblin Bully that costs.
Oh yeah! I had been testing 2 Settlers in the main. 1 or 0 is probably the correct number. 2 was too many.
Thanx! I'm eager to see them in action.Congrats!
I was an enormous skeptic regarding Rabblemaster because I kept evalutating him from a Vial Goblins standpoint (and because he pre-sold for $5 so it is difficult to pay anything higher than that...). He is arguably the best goblin in this build though.
Ghost Quarter is about 10 jugs of beer cheaper than Wasteland.
Just something to consider... Without a way to sac the Gardener, he's just a Goblin Bully that costs
Oh yeah! I had been testing 2 Settlers in the main. 1 or 0 is probably the correct number. 2 was too many.
I understand that the Moggcatchers' abilities plus the tokens from Rabblemasters are perhaps the "card draw" we want. Evasion and tougher bodies are my concern mostly, but I may be exaggerating this.
I understand and agree with you that Settler is far better, since I imagine no one will play Torpor Orb against DS. But Gardener still has many ways to be "sacrificed" indirectly. Jugs aside, I am an amateur player and I dislike paying that much for just a single card.. It's fortunate I built the core of DS long ago, otherwise I wouldn't even be here. Glad you guys say that the deck can play well without Settlers -and Imperial Recruiters too.
[edit: a Kiki-Jiki-ed Goblin Gardener can also do the job EOT]
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
Excellent point!
I guess where I'm coming from is, Settler's value in the deck is still being tested beyond having one in the sideboard... so using Gardner is likely to skew your opinion towards bad any time the cons above are relevant. But either gets the job done with Kiki-Jiki.
Hey everyone!!
Just picked up the deck recently to play in local events -- my meta's kinda unusual, a lot of cloudpost going on. To start, I'm working with Zac Turgeon's (guessing it's "ZTurgeon" on this thread?) list from Buncha Duals in November 2014 because I liked the thought process of Jitte in the mainboard.
Question for him and the rest of the group here -- why Goblin Piledriver in the sideboard? My reaction was that it was to swing through True-Name Nemesis, but aren't the decks that play TNN have access to non-blue removal for Piledriver. Other thoughts I have as I'm typing this is both for Merfolk (not popular here) or Jace (seems reasonable if that's the case). Would SoFI be a reasonable replacement since we don't have much access to card draw while providing us some removal/damage in the process?
I can't wait to start jamming with this in some live events and to contribute to this thread!
- Jon
It is (was, I have cut it since because all the true name decks now run 4 stoneforges) for true name, merfolk, and combo decks. I won many games by playing him, then using kiki to copy him and deal a ton of damage. Right now I have a bunch of smashes in my side because of that Jeskai Stoneblade deck and how bad of a match it is for us.Hey everyone!!
Just picked up the deck recently to play in local events -- my meta's kinda unusual, a lot of cloudpost going on. To start, I'm working with Zac Turgeon's (guessing it's "ZTurgeon" on this thread?) list from Buncha Duals in November 2014 because I liked the thought process of Jitte in the mainboard.
Question for him and the rest of the group here -- why Goblin Piledriver in the sideboard? My reaction was that it was to swing through True-Name Nemesis, but aren't the decks that play TNN have access to non-blue removal for Piledriver. Other thoughts I have as I'm typing this is both for Merfolk (not popular here) or Jace (seems reasonable if that's the case). Would SoFI be a reasonable replacement since we don't have much access to card draw while providing us some removal/damage in the process?
I can't wait to start jamming with this in some live events and to contribute to this thread!
- Jon
This thread always seems to come back to the age old question of Trinisphere or no Trinisphere now and again. Personally, I've won too many games off of Trinisphere for me to cut it. T1 Trinisphere either eats up a FOW or gives you Time Walk for 2 or 3 turns. Either situation is extremely good for you as they help set up either a Moon effect or a Chalice. It also shuts down both Storm and Omnitell, which would both kick our asses without it.
Mauler is extremely bad. Don't try it.
I've been tinkering around a tad and have again come to the conclusion that I hate Goblin Settler in the main. Rakka Mar just feels better in most situations. Now, against a deck like Miracles or Show and Tell decks, I think that Settler seems better, so I cut my Sharpshooter for Settler in the Side. The other sideboard change that I've made has been to cut the third Anarchy for the third Pyrokinesis. Pyrokinesis is live against more decks than Anarchy and really good against the Delver decks, so it gets more of a nod for now.I guess where I'm coming from is, Settler's value in the deck is still being tested beyond having one in the sideboard... so using Gardner is likely to skew your opinion towards bad any time the cons above are relevant. But either gets the job done with Kiki-Jiki.
I've got 4 Pyrokinesis in board and I'm not looking back. It' just absurd in too many places. I'd main it if we didn't already have that disadvantage in Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide.
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So I posted a similar list in the Vial Goblins thread, but Olaf suggested I post in here with it instead. Basically, this is a mashup of Vial Goblins and Stompy Goblins, using KJ with Ringleader and Matron to generate lots of card quality/card advantage and teching an infinite combo with a single Zealous Conscripts in case we need to pull a win from behind.
What have people running the Moggcatcher build been doing against Burn?
I remember this being a fairly positive matchup when I ran the traditional Hellbent Dragon Stompy. But Gathan Raiders is much larger than any of the creatures in the Catcher build and I'm pretty sure I was running 4 Trinispheres maindeck (now I'm running 3, with 1 in the board)...
I've been boarding out 4 Blood Moon; boarding in a Settler, the 4th Trinisphere, Stingscourger, and a Pyrokinesis. I'm still having some difficulty though. My occasional win against them comes from landing Trinisphere then Moggcatcher >> Settler >> Kiki.
I see a few issues with your list. The first is that the manabase hardly looks like it can support your mana requirements. The next is that 3 Kiki-Jiki is a lot. You only ever want one of them, so you would probably be better off running 4 Moggcatchers and 1 Kiki-Jiki rather than 2 and 3. The final thing is that Ringleader is going to be pretty bad in your list. You're only running 19 Goblin cards. Your odds of whiffing on the Ringleader become pretty high with such a low Goblin count.
I've only played against burn once since the change from Hellbent to Goblin lists and I lost to Eidolon of the Great Revel. Many times in the past I've won games mostly through Trinisphere and Chalice plus pressure. One of my favorite plays of all time is:
Opponent: Mountain, suspend Rift Bolt, pass
Me: Ancient Tomb, Exile Simian Spirit Guide, Trinisphere
I'm sorry, but isn't that your favorite line in any matchup?
Thank you :) I understand you try to help me not to see the G.Settler slot [or G.Gardener slot] with "false discrimination", due to the sub-par effectiveness of Gardener. Many people have suggested land destruction in the two Dragon Stompy threads (old & new). Problem is, the land-destruction-on-that-fetched-basic plan gets wasted when we face Vials, Birds, Hierarchs, moxes, deathrite shamans, etc. So, the reason I'm considering Settler/Gardener is that we also run Scrapper and Redcap, which can take care of other mana sources as well - if this is really the best solution, and not a Siege Gang! but anyway, I like the toolbox, and i'll test it maindeck for sure. I can always imagine (while playing) what would the immediate effect be if Gardener was Settler (or Siege GangExcellent point!
I guess where I'm coming from is, Settler's value in the deck is still being tested beyond having one in the sideboard... so using Gardner is likely to skew your opinion towards bad any time the cons above are relevant. But either gets the job done with Kiki-Jiki.) I also undestood why you played more than 1 Rabblemaster in the end...it does apply a lot of pressure and so very early.
That's a sick turn 1 play vs burn ---^ I've done it too :) the card i personally fear most when I play vs Burn is Smash to Smithereens.
I'm trying to read as many of this thread's last pages, congrats on your 13th place Zupponn^^
No, it's not. If you know by t2 that your opponent runs Wasteland, then think twice about playing your sol land into chalice or Trini. I'd play Rabblemaster or a Moon t1, and then Trini or Chalice. Let him waste the wasteland on your sol land with a fast threat down and see what happens. Well, probably (s)he won't do it.
Zac, congrats man :D I have a question, since your list had 4 Rabblemasters, wouldn't you rather play Goblin King than Goblin Piledriver? I know he isn't pro blue, but he can be surprise-Moggcatched at the end of declare attackers and make your Goblins unblockable (7-8 Moons) and +1/+1. I like your Boartusk Liege SB!
Guys, I think I'll totally cut all the equipment (had 2 Jitte and 1 SoFI/SoLS) and play 2-3 Bonfire of the Damned main. I love its immediate effect. Speaking about immediate effect, I also agree with Olaf about how good Pyrokinesis can be. But it's what u said, the card advantage vs. the turn/mana advantage that Pyrokinesis has to offer. Sometimes not an advantage with Trinisphere in play, but ok, that sounds minor when it occasionally happens compared to the speed/mana advantage. Still, Bonfire sounds better to me. If you had any ackward situations in which you'd prefer Bonfire to Pyrokinesis, please do share it with us xD And I'm asking you especially because you like Pyrokinesis.
Other things I consider are: a singleton Gemstone Caverns maindeck till I buy my Caverns of Souls, 1 Moltensteel Dragon (you only want to see him once due to phyrexian mana, but he can be a 2 turn clock). One only (or 2 max) Lodestone Golem, perhaps in the SB (extra Trini-like effect for the late turns. Fetched Goblins are unaffected and Rabblemasters are cheap. If you don't like it, then waste it as a blocker - and if there are no attackers then it's a 4 turn clock). 1 Lightning Crafter could also help, as an instant speed response to Terminus - mass removal effects: you fetch Crafter, champion your best goblin or rakka mar, and you have a threat down after the apocalypse.
An alternative SB with 3 Bonfire main could be:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst (extra taxes on the late turns, extra "trinishperes" on the early ones ---> exchange with Bonfires)
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre (reanimator uncounterable "counterspell")
@ jrcelso: have a good start!
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
Usually, but against the T1 suspended Rift Bolt, they won't be able to cast it T2 so it remains exiled forever.
Thanks!
The biggest thing I see is that both Thorn and the Golem do not work well with Trinisphere. A Brainstorm with a Trinisphere and a Thorn out still only costs 3 mana. That's why people tend to only run one or the other in Dragon Stompy. I also would still recommend looking into Anarchy as a potential option. That card is super good against things that give us trouble.
Well, Anarchy really is one of my favorite cards :) It's one sided mass permanent removal, and it has an immediate effect. Some of the 4 Ratchet Bombs took its place, in that SB I propose. I always try to include 1 Anarchy and 1 Shattering Spree in my SB, along with 2-3 R-bombs (which have a slower, but generic effect).
I partially agree with you concerning Thorn of Amethyst. But what if the wording was a bit different? What if the text said:
"Non-creature spells that cost 3 or more, cost 1 more to cast."
Well, it does more that that. Suddenly Show and Tell costs 4, while Rabblemaster keeps spawning guys. I think we overfocus on the conflict it has with Trinisphere on those 0-1-2 converted mana cost spells.
I'd like to say that due to studies, my testing is minimal, so don't take my ideas as sth solid. But since I'm emotionally attached to this deck, I love to brainstorm a bit, so here I am
edit: if it's you who proposed Confusion in the Ranks, then kudos, I think it is a very good option. Not only it is good as an answer, it can also be hardcast on the later turns and it definitely kicks ass when paired with those Rabblemaster tokens. Plus, it may give some use to all those "dead" Blood Moons and Trinispheres (or even SSG/Magi) we may draw later.
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
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