I was just skulking around the old Fate Reforged Thread when I ran into this quote from Finn. . .
But now that Treasure Cruise is gone. . . should we explore Defector/Path again? It's a pretty powerful draw engine - that isn't in blue. I doubt blue decks will want to run it, since it takes up a lot of cards, and the blue shell works well enough that it doesn't need something like this. Additionally they would rather turn to Dig Through Time.Originally Posted by Finn
What deck or archetype can this card be used in and why?
As stated this is a very powerful - if - vulnerable draw engine. I would suppose that a non-blue deck could run it. I don't think existing decks will want it however, since it does take up a lot of room.
How has the metagame changed or what new cards exist now to make this card playable?
As the quote from Finn stated - when we first saw Defector/Path - we should have been a little more excited. I mean people, were excited, but no one tested the draw engine. There was no point with Cruise around. But now Cruise is gone. . .
Sample Deck List
I didn't include numbers, but i doubt the correct numbers are 4 offs for Defector/path. The idea of this deck was literately Defector/Path - Now I need cards to search for them . . . oh they also search for other lands and they are red green. . . so Punishing Fire. DRS - so I got black in there, and etc. . . . In the end. . . it came out looking a little like Punishing Jund. I don't know if that's the best direction to take.
4 Humble Defector
4 DRS
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Thought Seize
4 Punishing Fire
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Homeward Path
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
14 Other Lands Lands
Maybe some kind of rock-ish shell with a Wishboard? Living Wish can grab both Defector and Path, along with whatever hatebears you're on-color for.
Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows just seems much stronger. It's also conveniently a land + 1R card combo, just like humble defector + homeward path. I don't think you need to jam another (weaker) combo into a deck with that already... In general I just don't see the utility of Homeward path being as good at the utility of any other lands in Legacy. Karaks, port, wasteland for example all seem better utility lands and the interaction with humble defector just doesn't seem powerful enough to me.
Blue has lots of untap effects which are one of the better ways to get value from the defector - cards like Mind over Matter or Jeskai Ascendancy (and maybe even Psychic Overload) can be quite explosive in combination with him. Moreover, Defector / Path is going to be a turn 3 thing so I'd expect it to want a control component which, again, pushes things toward blue.
Some other ways to exploit the defector are Astral Slide, Shallow Grave, Threaten, Twinflame, Fractured Loyalty, and Custody Battle.
I can barely believe that I am saying this, but try Starke of Rath in this deck fragment.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Astral slide seems nice :)
Your probably drawing into more cycling cards that will draw cards for you and reset the humble defector :)
What good cycling cards can be played in legacy? complicate?
The rest is less stellar or even interressting... especially Custody battle. Just can't see the upside of this. your opponent will do the exact same thing as you as soon as he will reach his upkeek : tap it for 2 cards and give it back to you.
That would actually be hilarious.
The combo looks more like a BR Death combo to me. Put it in a BR shell to amplify the card draw and play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to make the Homeward Path actually usable by itself.
4 Humble Defector
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Some of those cards can have synergy with other stuff like Bazaar TraderThe rest is less stellar or even interressting... especially Custody battle. Just can't see the upside of this. your opponent will do the exact same thing as you as soon as he will reach his upkeek : tap it for 2 cards and give it back to you.
Brand isn't going to be entirely terrible in a deck that has some kind of homeward path game plan.
Street Wraith and possibly Edge of Autumn can 'free' cycle.
Unearth saw some play with Snapcaster Mage and could work OK with trader and sacrifice effects.
Homeward Path is pretty terrible... I find it difficult to believe any Legacy deck wants to run 4 of that card.
I would think a deck that successfully uses the Humble Defector/Homeward Path synergy would run 3 or 4 Defectors and 1 Path with multiple ways to find the Path. I'm thinking Crop Rotation or Expedition Map.
Is this draw engine something R/G Combo Lands even wants?
Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
Enchantments
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
Mana Lands
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Mana Denial
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Combo
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
Draw
4 Humble Defector
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
Utility
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Homeward Path
That is a 62 card list, but the R/G lands thread lists a range of cards to include and that is where I copy/pasta'd from. I am NOT a Lands player, so keep in mind I'm not recommending an optimal list, just looking to see if HD/HP works here.
I basically swapped Gamble for Humble Defector.
Ostensibly, a deck could go the other way and try to find other cards to work with Homeward Path.
Humble Defector
Treacherous Pit-Dweller
Starke of Rath
Homeward Path
Brand
...
*Immediately begins brewing a Burn list including this combo*
I don't think that Homeward Path is going to mitigate the entire spectrum of times when this card is less than stellar. I half expected someone to suggest it in a Zombardment list, just to give the controller more ways of flat out nixing the card before it can change controllers. Humble Defector + Liquimetal Coating + Shrapnel Blast, you're my only hope!
The question is would you want to play any of the combo cards on their own merit and the answer is no. Sleeper Agent is another card that would fit into a fast aggro motif but it's just a really bad card on its own.
The real advantage of Humble Defector is that it's a draw engine that can carry a jitte. Not too many of those around.
Another possibility would be Grixis with Gilded Drake's in the sideboard for when the opponent is playing creatures.
Plenty of cute synergies. A Naya deck with Reconnaissance and Knight of the Reliquary could work. Knight finds your one-of Path, you attack and draw extra cards. But Sylvan Library is probably just better.
Umbral Mantle gets you an extra activation for 3 mana and can be found with SFM. but SOFI is probably better.
I just don't see this card being good enough in a fair Legacy deck. I saw a guy stacking activations in Jeskai Ascendancy on a stream last week, that was impressive.
What I would like to know is why Night's Whisper (or even Sign in Blood) don't see more play in non-Blue, Black-containing decks. They straight up draw you 2 cards for a fairly low cost of 2 life, and in an aggressive shell SiB can even be used to nail the opponent for the last 2 damage.
I understand that Humble Defector *could* be a repeatable draw engine with the correct combination of cards, but in most scenarios you're likely just going to be forced to use him 'as is' and hand him over to an opponent who might get to untap with him. Hence the comparison with NW/SiB.
So I guess what I'm saying is, is a singular Draw 2 for 2 even a powerful enough effect for Legacy in general? Because if it were, I'd imagine the aforementioned Black sorceries would actually see some play. I'm thinking that most deck lists have enough choices to approach optimization, and if they are looking for some card drawing power there already exists better alternatives than what Humble Defector could offer.
edit: I suppose if there were a cheap and effective way to *stack* draw activations and thus net 10+ cards in a single turn I'd have a different opinion and see the value in running such a clunky card. But without this sort of enabler, I see it as being mostly useless.
I think this is spot on. Sign in Blood is not staple enough to break through, how could this possibly be any better? The lengths one goes through to negate the drawback in this car, after fucking summoning sickness even, cannot possibly be more valuable thanand two life.
Hell, Red has 'draw two' spells right now that are easier to bolster. I would submit that in a deck that goes Hellbent as a matter of fact, even Dangerous Wager is arguably more potent than this guy.
I think the good scenario with defector is to swing a couple of times and then turn it into cards once it becomes 'obsolete', and he's just not good and fast enough for it to make sense in legacy.
This, using defector plus an enabler automatically puts it at more mana and cards than nights whisper for the same effect, so really you have to be able to get two activations at least before it can even be considered viable, even if the enabler cost 0 mana. The only place I've seen it work is in Jeskai Ascendancy.
You can always go green and use the game's best untappers. Quirion Rangers, Wirewood Symbiotes and mayhaps Scryb Rangers. Put in stuff like Exploration to keep your land count up and stack the shit out of that little bugger.
This also means you get to run Crop Rotations to help you find the Homeward Paths.
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