All B/R update speculation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Netdecking, the biggest crime in MtG.
Is it even possible to design a deck that is actually competative and does not exist already? Making like anything you throw together netdecking?

Ever since the first dude thrown his Apes and Bolts into deck with Taigas, I guess all was said in aggro department.
The horror of netdecking is the most criticized by the people who "build" their decks by throwing all the cards with theri favourite art into one pile, than they add some amount of various 5/5, 7/7 and 6/8 beef and finish this construction with not enough lands and zero color fixation. Then they cry and whine when any solidly designed decks with enough River Boas kills them 10:0 in less than hour. /nothing to see here

If it were up to me, Mind Twist, Hermit Druid, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash, Balance, Mystical Tutor, Memory Jar, Oath of Druids, and Flash would all come up, probably in that order.

Then you'd unban Flash twice. Also... no, please no Balance.

[Fatal]

Balance, Flash, Oath of Druids ? Are you guys kidding ? Did you ever played against those cards, getting balanced from Burning Long was enough frustrating. Playing 4 x Balance in white Stax - is much more painful then vs MUD on draw in Vintage.

Flash ? - do we need 1 mana less, instant speed, one sided S&T - no also thanks - same for Oath of Druids.

Some of cards are on the banned list not only because they are copy/pasted from T1 Format.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

"I'm so fucking mad that two awful cards that I likely would never have an excuse to play with or against are banned." -Quizzlemanizzle

Mind Twist is playable, Pox decks would consider it when they run Dark Ritual.

Black Vise would also be fringe playable.

Black Vise and Mind Twist are both cards where they either would do nothing, or would increase the amount of bad games that get "played". There simply isn't a positive, "format became more fun" kind of case to be made for either card.

There are way more "unfun" cards in legacy than that. If Black Vise is unfun than what about The Rack? If Mind Twist is unfun than what about Hymn to Tourach? By that measure what about Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Wasteland, Nether Void, The Abyss, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance..

[Zombie]

There are way more "unfun" cards in legacy than that. If Black Vise is unfun than what about The Rack? If Mind Twist is unfun than what about Hymn to Tourach? By that measure what about Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Wasteland, Nether Void, The Abyss, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance..

The argument that there are worse offenders in the wild is like saying we should release the mugger who's jailed for stabbing someone because ISIS exists or the Israeli army blew up a city for kicks.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

The argument that there are worse offenders in the wild is like saying we should release the mugger who's jailed for stabbing someone because ISIS exists or the Israeli army blew up a city for kicks.

No it is not. The legacy banlist should contain only cards that break format rules or warp the format.

Neither Mind Twist nor Black Vise have that potential and thus should be unbanned immediately.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

The argument that there are worse offenders in the wild is like saying we should release the mugger who's jailed for stabbing someone because ISIS exists or the Israeli army blew up a city for kicks.

No it is not. If that comparison was valid then I expect you to heavily lobby to ban all the cards worse than MT/BV now.


The legacy banlist should contain only cards that break format rules or warp the format.

Neither Mind Twist nor Black Vise have that potential and thus should be unbanned immediately.

[Spam]

Neither Mind Twist nor Black Vise have that potential and thus should be unbanned immediately.

In some regards I can see a point for Mind Twist. However, I can't quite grasp how a card that punishes you just for having more than four cards in hand is fair and dose not warp at all the format.

[Zombie]

No it is not. If that comparison was valid then I expect you to heavily lobby to ban all the cards worse than MT/BV now.

Does not follow.

The current case is:
Card is banned. Does not affect the format.

Probable unbanning scenarios that I think are realistic:
1. Card does not affect the format.
2. Number of bad games will increase.

What I don't think will happen:
3. The format will become more interesting.

=> I think it should stay banned. We're talking about inaction here, not setting a standard. Cards worse than MT/Vise are legal in the format and have been shown to do nothing, so we can also be inactive towards them.

I'm not thinking in terms of "Set a standard, ban/unban cards that fit/don't fit." It's not an argument I'm making at all.

All I'm doing is taking a suggested action (unbanning a certain card) and evaluating the (in my mind) probable results of it. I don't see positive EV in any of them (I don't think banlist length is of any value), so I suggest that we don't take them. All there is to it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

In some regards I can see a point for Mind Twist. However, I can't quite grasp how a card that punishes you just for having more than four cards in hand is fair and dose not warp at all the format.

The Rack's mana investment is the same as Black Vise but The Rack requires more investment (usually in cards) to see value (as damage). I suspect Burn would immediately add 4 Black Vise if it were unbanned. It is exactly the type of low investment, repeatable damage card Burn would want and it also gets around the most effective Burn-hate (Chill, Circle of Protection: Red).

I believe it is healthy for the format's dedicated control deck (Miracles) to have an even-positive matchup against Burn (an omnipresent, budget friendly deck) because Miracles also keeps fast combo in check. In a format where Burn rides a first turn Black Vise to victory against Miracles most of the time, why play Miracles?

[menace13]

However, I can't quite grasp how a card that punishes you just for having more than four cards in hand is fair and dose not warp at all the format.

It's not. It's very fucking unfair.

Bad magic players will come in with their bullshit ignorant statement of if it costs 5 it better win the game. Or when will there ever be a scenario of 5 mana and 4 cards in opponents hand and youre not dead???1!? All retarded arguments. Most of these badsies dont know how good the card is because they have never played with or against it. Another great bad excuse is what decks would run it? Any deck that can get to 4 or more lands, wants a game winning bomb that must be countered, and has access to a fetch for a swamp. Is it be all end all of every deck ever? No. It will be pretty shitty often compared to, say a hymn. But when it isnt? It's absolutely a fucking blowout.

Keep that variance no skill needing PoS out of the format. PLSTYBAI

[Zombie]

It's not. It's very fucking unfair.

Bad magic players will come in with their bullshit ignorant statement of if it costs 5 it better win the game. Or when will there ever be a scenario of 5 mana and 4 cards in opponents hand and youre not dead???1!? All retarded arguments. Most of these badsies dont know how good the card is because they have never played with or against it. Another great bad excuse is what decks would run it? Any deck that can get to 4 or more lands, wants a game winning bomb that must be countered, and has access to a fetch for a swamp. Is it be all end all of every deck ever? No. It will be pretty shitty often compared to, say a hymn. But when it isnt? It's absolutely a fucking blowout.

Having to mulligan into a somewhat clunky draw that you could make work with tight play and the opponent landing T1 Vise is the worst.

[Lemnear]

It's not. It's very fucking unfair.

Bad magic players will come in with their bullshit ignorant statement of if it costs 5 it better win the game. Or when will there ever be a scenario of 5 mana and 4 cards in opponents hand and youre not dead???1!? All retarded arguments. Most of these badsies dont know how good the card is because they have never played with or against it. Another great bad excuse is what decks would run it? Any deck that can get to 4 or more lands, wants a game winning bomb that must be countered, and has access to a fetch for a swamp. Is it be all end all of every deck ever? No. It will be pretty shitty often compared to, say a hymn. But when it isnt? It's absolutely a fucking blowout.

Keep that variance no skill needing PoS out of the format. PLSTYBAI

sometimes it amazes me that people are unable to think about the potential of cards like Mindtwist if paired with Elves (and Cradle) or Cloudpost to blow you out turn 3 in a fucking unfun way. Black Vise paired with Stasis to die slowly or with Stifle/Wasteland/Delver sounds VERY FUN...

[nedleeds]

Having to mulligan into a somewhat clunky draw that you could make work with tight play and the opponent landing T1 Vise is the worst.

mulliganing to a clunky hand ...

and getting belched on the draw is worse.
getting delver,daze,natty flip,force, waste, stiled is worse.
getting griselderped is worse.

Pretty sure I'd rather have my burn opponent top deck Black Vise rather than Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Bolt, Chain Lightning or Fireblast.
Black Vise is a viable finisher in prison strategies, unfortunately Chalice 1 is one of the best plays a legacy prison deck can make since the format allows all the degenerate blue cantrips

[nedleeds]

Keep that variance no skill needing PoS out of the format. PLSTYBAI

And Lava Spike is a skill tester? Delver? Show and Tell? GTFO with these stupid skill arguments.

[maharis]

It's not. It's very fucking unfair. Bad magic players will come in with their bullshit ignorant statement of if it costs 5 it better win the game. Or when will there ever be a scenario of 5 mana and 4 cards in opponents hand and youre not dead???1!? All retarded arguments. Most of these badsies dont know how good the card is because they have never played with or against it. Another great bad excuse is what decks would run it? Any deck that can get to 4 or more lands, wants a game winning bomb that must be countered, and has access to a fetch for a swamp. Is it be all end all of every deck ever? No. It will be pretty shitty often compared to, say a hymn. But when it isnt? It's absolutely a fucking blowout. Keep that variance no skill needing PoS out of the format. PLSTYBAI

1) he was talking about vise
2) lol @ any deck that can fetch a swamp playing it. Though there is an equal opportunity dunce suggesting ELVES would play the thing when that deck won't even play Collected Company.

[Lemnear]

1) he was talking about vise
2) lol @ any deck that can fetch a swamp playing it. Though there is an equal opportunity dunce suggesting ELVES would play the thing when that deck won't even play Collected Company.

Collected company is unimpressive in Elves because of the density of non-creature cards, the actual impact of the creatures put into play with Company, the presence of Glimpse as a CA engine and the manacost being a problem against sweepers harming your manadevelopment.

This is totally different to Mindtwist which would serve as a SB card against combo/control for Elves which already run Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy for those.

Apples and Oranges

[maharis]

Collected company is unimpressive in Elves because of the density of non-creature cards, the actual impact of the creatures put into play with Company, the presence of Glimpse as a CA engine and the manacost being a problem against sweepers harming your manadevelopment. This is totally different to Mindtwist which would serve as a SB card against combo/control for Elves which already run Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy for those. Apples and Oranges

Yeah, the deck runs TS and CT out of the SB to hit specific problems. They aren't saving up for a big blowout, especially one at random that may not even hit the card they fear.

The point of comparing to CC was that if the deck won't run double GSZ for 1 with upside at instant speed when every card currently in the deck is either an elf, a card that gets more elves, or a wincon, it certainly isn't running a tapout at sorcery speed counterspell target.

Even post-post-Urborg-twist you isn't that scary, or any more so than Hymn at least. On the draw you probably still have at least two cards left if it resolves, they've done nothing to the board, they've tapped out, and you can counter it or potentially be playing something like souls/punishing fire/loam.

Mind Twist sucked to play against when people would build decks that wanted to double ritual-twist you turn one, but such a strategy is so dangerous against today's streamlined legacy decks as to be not worth worrying about. I am pretty sure the card was banned before FOW was printed.

Vise has more potential to be annoying, but again decks are so streamlined nowadays that if you are locked under a vise, the lock probably lost you the game already anyway. You just die sooner than waiting for a mishras factory to peck you to death.

[JACO]

Also on Drain. I am not suggesting unbanning it, I was musing on how much play it would see and I am not really sure how much it would. As for its price, it's not on the list, that issue can be solved. If Drain is the only thing from my post that you want to force on though, I feel you have undersold the points I was wishing to make.

There are a number of cards (Mana Drain, Vampiric Tutor, Tinker) that I have seen people cite as not that offensive, and candidates to potentially unban. Those 3 are examples of cards that I would play 4 of in Legacy from the time they became legal again, until the time they are banned again, because they are miles ahead of other available power level.

As far as Mind Twist and Black Vise, they should have definitely come off years ago. I really don't understand unbanning Worldgorger Dragon and leaving these cards banned. Mind Twist, while a powerful card, pales in comparison to other available Legacy strategies. Mind Twist in Elves' sideboard is cute, and certainly a novel idea, but it's nowhere near the concern that more broken spells are. You want to spend your 3rd or 4th turn Mind Twisting me instead of casting Show and Tell, Ad Nauseam, or Natural Order? Fantastic. I'm all for allowing somebody to make me discard a few cards, rather than losing on the spot to a more broken spell.

[Squirrel]

There are a number of cards (Mana Drain, Vampiric Tutor, Tinker) that I have seen people cite as not that offensive, and candidates to potentially unban. Those 3 are examples of cards that I would play 4 of in Legacy from the time they became legal again, until the time they are banned again, because they are miles ahead of other available power level.

As far as Mind Twist and Black Vise, they should have definitely come off years ago. I really don't understand unbanning Worldgorger Dragon and leaving these cards banned. Mind Twist, while a powerful card, pales in comparison to other available Legacy strategies. Mind Twist in Elves' sideboard is cute, and certainly a novel idea, but it's nowhere near the concern that more broken spells are. You want to spend your 3rd or 4th turn Mind Twisting me instead of casting Show and Tell, Ad Nauseam, or Natural Order? Fantastic. I'm all for allowing somebody to make me discard a few cards, rather than losing on the spot to a more broken spell.

Wait, what? So let's say you are Mind Twisted for 4 on Turn 3 against Elves, you have a decision to make: 1. Do You counter it, or do you play against a board full of elves and the opponents hand by topdecking outs?
You're not dead on the Spot, but not many decks are winning after MINUS 4 (FOUR) random Cards. I thought Treasure Cruise showed people what happens when you can win the card advantage battle massively in one card.

Worldgorger Dragon is a 3 Card Combo which dies to Grave Hate, Removal, Counterspells, Stifle, Enchantment Removal (and Wasteland if your Wincon is Nephalia).

[Finn]

I don't want to get in the middle of this.

But Treasure Cruise did not cost 5 mana. The two are as similar as a clover leaf and a bar of soap.

Elves is a deck that is designed from the ground up to generate mana fast. It's design space is occupied by cards that do this instead of counters and removal. So it is perfectly within its range to do broken things on turn 3 (like win, for example). Unless you are talking about Ancestral Recall, don't bother comparing anything to Treasure Cruise which required little design space to do its thing.

Hell, I would go so far as to say that for 5 mana, discarding four cards at random from my opponent's hand is not even a strong play.