Magic Origins

[MGB]

The problem is he doesn't just cost . In order for him to perform as people here are discussing, there is an additional time and mana investment that must be made. Elite Vanguard costs , but it will never be anything more than an Elite Vanguard. But we're expecting more out of this card, and to do that you need to be honest with the cost evaluation. Saying this new Gideon only cost is like saying Student of Warfare only costs for a 4/4 Double Strike.

You should liken this investment to the investment required to make Tarmogoyf work, or Young Pyromancer, or Terminus, or Delver. Yes, you need to spend additional mana to make these things function at their peak, but that mana is being spent to do other things and the "flip" benefit is almost incidental.

There is a pretty big difference between Student of Warfare / Figure of Destiny that *require* and *lock you into* spending real mana to transform these creatures, and creatures like this that, if you build a deck that suits their purposes, can reach their peak with zero mana investment specifically used on them. If you're casting tons of dudes and attacking with lots of guys, you are gaining benefit from simply doing that, and any additional benefits you gain from flipping this guy are incidental.

Now, I'm not saying that this creature is as good as Delver / Goyf / Terminus et al. It remains to be seen whether a deck that plays a ton of attackers and is attacking each turn with 3+ creatures is really where you want to be in Legacy. But if that deck is possible and is viable, then there is really no extra cost involved in flipping this guy beyond his initial W mana cost, because your deck is just doing what it needs to be doing anyway - just like you don't view playing Brainstorm / Ponder / tons of other noncreature spells to grow Tarmogoyf and flip Delvers an extra cost, because you want to be playing those spells anyway.

[iamajellydonut]

My point was that if windbrisk is not playable then no way is New Gideon playable.

And I agree. The card is a Savannah Lions. If playing optimally, you should never have enough mana to actually pay his "payable upside". And his "free flip" will never be free so long as you have to build a deck around him to actually make it flip.

[PirateKing]

There is a pretty big difference between Student of Warfare / Figure of Destiny that *require* and *lock you into* spending real mana to transform these creatures, and creatures like this that, if you build a deck that suits their purposes, can reach their peak with zero mana investment specifically used on them. If you're casting tons of dudes and attacking with lots of guys, you are gaining benefit from simply doing that, and any additional benefits you gain from flipping this guy are incidental.

The point being casting tons of dudes and attacking with lots of guys is an investment of time, mana & cards that Legacy decks just don't have; especially in a world of Terminus. Discussing decks built around this flip condition is ridiculous when getting caught overextending is a death sentence.

[iamajellydonut]

especially in a world of Terminus.

And it's not even just Terminus. Every deck in Legacy whose agenda isn't to ignore your plan packs sweepers. From shitty Electrickeries and Forked Bolts to godly Golgari Charms and Toxic Deluges to neat tricks like Snapcaster->Bolt. Every deck has immediate access to a value bomb.

[Barook]

I wish the CC of 4 and double red wouldn't hinder it to go into Imperial Taxes. I might still try it out if it becomes cheap enough as tutor target.

[iamajellydonut]

Is Siege-Gang Commander too good?

[Gheizen64]

As a legend and no way to cheat it into play like SGC, it really should've costed 1RR to be playable/good.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The art is awful! I guess I don't hate that Papa Nalaar has the same goggles as Chandra...

But all I can think of is this:

Do you think our daughter will be a fiery redhead?



Anyways, I actually don't hate it for Eight-Moon Stompy. Gives a little bit of reach and a use for superfluous moxen or 3balls.

[kirkusjones]

Am I the only one bothered by two people being referred to as one creature? I know it's been done before but I guess I never gave it that much thought.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Am I the only one bothered by two people being referred to as one creature?

Vendilion Clique is 3 creatures on one card.
Had to explain to a friend last week that 'Clique' isn't the last name of Vendilion, but a close-nit group that excludes others.

[iamajellydonut]

Am I the only one bothered by two people being referred to as one creature? I know it's been done before but I guess I never gave it that much thought.

I don't really care about this particular case. What does bother me is that a dislike of multiple creatures represented as one card was their justification to stick us with Elvish Mystic.

[lyracian]

I don't really care about this particular case. What does bother me is that a dislike of multiple creatures represented as one card was their justification to stick us with Elvish Mystic.

Also Runeclaw Bear!

The Nalaar's look more playable than their daughter. Fringe card but still 4 power for 4 mana with a built in burn to the face option.

As for the other walkers Nissa is a great card advantage engine for Green the problem is, outside of NicFit who wants that many basic Forests in their deck? Green already has "Titania, Protector of Argoth" and Prime Time neither of which need 7 lands. Nissa's only advantage is that you can play her on turn 3 and she is a cheaper GSZ target.

I could see a lot of ways Kytheon could be played. Affinity, Lingering Souls, Goblins, some Zoo variant (just because zoo is currently dead doesn't mean it won't be able to make a comeback).

On a pure power level a 2/1 that flips into a 4/4 Indestructible is better value at 1 mana than Delver; downside is without flying he easily gets stonewalled by Mom, Gofy or TNN. I still like the card I just can not see it it breaking into Legacy.

[bruizar]

Also Runeclaw Bear!

The Nalaar's look more playable than their daughter. Fringe card but still 4 power for 4 mana with a built in burn to the face option.

As for the other walkers Nissa is a great card advantage engine for Green the problem is, outside of NicFit who wants that many basic Forests in their deck? Green already has "Titania, Protector of Argoth" and Prime Time neither of which need 7 lands. Nissa's only advantage is that you can play her on turn 3 and she is a cheaper GSZ target.

On a pure power level a 2/1 that flips into a 4/4 Indestructible is better value at 1 mana than Delver; downside is without flying he easily gets stonewalled by Mom, Gofy or TNN. I still like the card I just can not see it it breaking into Legacy.

I agree with you here. I think the only planeswalker that has competitive legacy potential is jace. Although that remains to be proven. Summoning sivkness is the hidden cost of these walkers.

[rufus]

Elemental Bond seems like something that could find a home. There's a decent number of legacy critters that have power >=3.

[dunk]

I don't really care about this particular case. What does bother me is that a dislike of multiple creatures represented as one card was their justification to stick us with Elvish Mystic.

It should bother you, as they just shit on their own rules anyway. At first I though that cards like "Ojutai Exemplars" was an exception as it is Mythic, but even on commons like "Sibsig Icebreakers" or "Aerie Bowmasters"... fuck that.

[Kanti]

It should bother you, as they just shit on their own rules anyway. At first I though that cards like "Ojutai Exemplars" was an exception as it is Mythic, but even on commons like "Sibsig Icebreakers" or "Aerie Bowmasters"... fuck that.

Wait, at first you thought the only cards that art multiple characters were some rarities like Ojutai Exemplars? Who even knows what that card does? Llanowar Elves should be the first card to shoot into your head.

Pretty weird thing to get pissed at. And why woudn't you want Elvish Mystic around? Better for commander, and it gives you a new name and art to choose from. Do you like Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, or Elvish Mystic? More choices.

[Barook]

Elemental Bond seems like something that could find a home. There's a decent number of legacy critters that have power >=3.

But what deck does run enough of them to make the card worthwhile? By itself, it's just card disadvantage.

[rufus]

But what deck does run enough of them to make the card worthwhile? By itself, it's just card disadvantage.

You're right. Legacy has Glimpse of Nature and Beck // Call which will be better almost all of the time. The cards that Elemental Bond would work well with aren't that bad though:

I'm guessing it wouldn't work with Batterskull because the germ token enters play as a 0/0, and it's kind of silly with Geist of Saint Traft.

Is there a deck that runs Nimble Mongoose, Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary?

Or one that runs Shriekmaw,Strangleroot Geist, Geralf's Messenger, and Treacherous Pit Dweller?

[Cire]

But what deck does run enough of them to make the card worthwhile? By itself, it's just card disadvantage.

Standard draw engine with Mardu Scout?

[Amon Amarth]

WotC posted images of some of the spoiled cards from the video so you don't have to squint anymore. Spoilers coming soon too!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...saw-2015-06-18