[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Bahra]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package. They didn't ultimately win the thing, but making top 8 at a GP is such an accomplishment anyway, you can't say those decks could really be improved. I'm sure both of the Aggro Loam pilots beat plenty of Miracles throughout their days to get to Top 8.

Teeg is just the way to go right now. After the results of Day 1, I added a third to my sideboard. Obviously, no card makes another card completely unusable all the time, but for all the flex spots that decks like Miracles don't care about since they don't add a wrench in their plans - Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avenger - it's good to have more cards be attacking their value mechanics. Everything they play is a "must respond", so DnT's strategy ought to be, likewise, the same.

Jund is always going to be tough, and with all that Loam/Punishing Fire going on as well, Absolute Law looks VERY relevant.

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.

[MGB]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.

Hey, come join the Soldier Stompy legion, Bahra. We have Chalice and Thalia in the same deck! And you can play Magus of the Moon with the red splash if you choose, and play Uncounterable Magus as early as Turn 2 :) And this new set basically gave soldiers its own Stoneforge Mystic on a 3/3 body!

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Did Bahra go 3-3 with Imperial Taxes or traditional Death and Taxes?

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.

I think we'll just have to fundamentally disagree then. Just because a card "dies to removal" is not a reason to not play it, unless of course it also nets the opponent back a card. This is why I've moved away from strategies involving Fiend Hunter, Leonin-Relic Warder, and Oblivion Ring, since you actually risk additional horrible things happening besides just losing a body.

Finn had an old joke in a Lands thread regarding people discussing card choices and why this or that was better or not, and someone was shooting down another's idea about a card because it was susceptible to Abrupt Decay, and he said something like "your argument is like saying Dark Confidant is bad because it dies to Lightning Bolt". Will Bob potentially just trade 1 for 1? Sure. But if left unanswered, he starts locking down the game. The entire reason for an anti-meta deck is about restricting opponents choices. Of course Teeg dies to removal. Why play anything but True Name Nemesis if that's your holdup?

So Absolute Law is bad because it dies to spot removal Jund carries. Hardly. That's now a Decay that WASN'T used on Serra Avenger, or a Golgari Charm that WASN'T used as a -1/-1 sweeper. And no one is arguing to not use Rest in Peace. I'm usually bringing in 2x and a Relic + Absolute Law against Jund. This isn't an either/or.

"I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time."

I don't see how there is a possible disconnect here. Dig Through Time is a CMC4+ spell. Gaddock Teeg stops CMC4+ spells. How is this not an answer? It's the exact equivalent of Meddling Mage, except instead of having to name the "right" card for your situation - Terminus, Jace, DtT, Entreat, or GSZenith/NO for Elves - you just get to skip the naming and turn them off. Spirit of the Labyrinth was a far inferior product for maindeck consideration even when Treasure Cruise was a thing because of its almost wasted 3 power on a 1 toughness body, and for usually being too late to stop the cards it aimed to stop. At least with Teeg there's no common reality where you don't get a chance to cast it if in your opener before your opponent gets to cast Dig, or any other CMC4 spell for that matter.

"And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice."

This part I like the best because I'm only missing the Chalice. Yet I don't feel like I've ever "warped" my deck. If anything, it's way more subtle than red because it doesn't potentially turn off its own lands.

I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

[Curby]

One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

Furthermore, it doesn't mean that another splash isn't viable. But yes, I've been warning about drawing conclusions from narrow results for awhile now.

8 rounds ... is an EXTREMELY small sample size upon which to base conclusions

... and even more so for 6 rounds.

[frenadol]

While I do think Teeg is a necessary card right now if you're playing Wg, I wouldn't go so far as to say Teeg solves all the CMC4+ problems. Given the low density of such cards in the vast majority of decks (but Teeg still wrecks Miracles hands down) you're most of the time just trading one card for the chance of blanking one card. That's a very low value trade because of the low pushing power Teeg himself has, although he's much more resilient that SotL ever was. That's the main reason why I'm reluctant to play more than 1 of him in the maindeck, and that's only if there's card selection in the form of Library or Yisan. Another one or even 2 in the sideboard are fine because he's very good in the matchups where he's relevant.

Changing topic, I'm really liking Containment Priest right now, even at the cost of Vial. She has flash which can be more important that it seems, blanks a lot of the Elves kit, completely demolishes Dredge and Reanimator without needing GY hate, and shuts down GSZ against Loam, which can be quite a difficult matchup for DnT. With Wisps it also provides a secondary source of removal when StP isn't available (Chalice Merfolk)

Also WotC just needs to stop printing X/1 hatebears.

[Ralf]

I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

That is the perfect answer.
Imperial Tax was really a blast to play.
But as much competitive as you may be, variance/luck/bad pairings may happen and one should never draw conclusions based on ONE tournament result.

4/3 @ GP Lille.
Lend the deck to my sparing partner for a 5/1/1 @ Sunday Lille legacy (he drew the last one for money)

[c2232]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

Try a 2 of Surgical extraction.

[Barook]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful.

DTT is more powerful than TC and has not only surpassed it in usage, but also lifting the blue meta to a new all-time high, even higher than during the TC era. Stating that it isn't too powerful seems like a bad joke.

[MGB]

I would be more than satisfied with a DTT + SDT ban in concert with this latest B&R announcement. Both of those things need to go, now.

[Luca Grease]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package.

I generally respect your opinion as a DnT pilot and magic player in general, but this statement I just cannot agree with. Saying that blue DTT decks aren't too powerful because a dedicated hate deck running 5 virtual copies of Teeg + Chalice and Choke CAN beat them (but doesn't necessarily) doesn't make sense. If the only competitive options are playing a DTT deck (namely grixis/BURG Delver, Miracles or Omni-Tell) or a deck almost completely tuned to hate on DTT, then we definitely have a problem on our hands. That's the reason Treasure Cruise was banned in January: because it reduced the spectrum of viable competitive options and was bending the fundamentals of the game. Legacy has, for a long time, been the most diverse format in magic, but it is in a sorry state right now. When GP winning lists of the most controllish deck in the format are packing wasteland and daze, you know something's wrong...

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Well there were still 9 different decktypes in the Top 16. You might as well argue that Brainstorm should be banned; it was in way more of those decks than Dig Through Time was. Legacy might be slightly homogenous-looking to some, but it's probably because GP attendees are more risk-averse with their deck choices. I mean, this isn't a Survival vs. Anti-Survival meta quite yet. There's a good combo representation, control, and aggro in there.

Btw, just a side note, The winning Miracles list didn't have both Wasteland and Daze. I think some people just need to start taking on this meta with bold choices. Hell, maybe Burn is good right now? I wouldn't know. Perhaps Reanimator has its due. 12-Post? I know they are one of Miracles' worst nightmares traditionally. With the deck trending the way of Daze, that might be a recipe for disaster against a deck like that. Let's just wait for the next good-sized tourney before calling Legacy stale from DtT.

[Barook]

Food for thought:

I'm currently experimenting with the green splash including Noble Hierarch and KotR:

// Lands
2 [LG] Karakas
2 [10E] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [B] Savannah
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull

It's just a rough list. Cavern of Souls might be good here, but I'm in general not the biggest fan due to colored mana requirements. I cut a Port since it's fetchable with KotR and to stabilize the manabase. 8 Fetches and no Canopy to have enough Plains for fetching and KotR activations.

I only goldfished so far for various reasons, but this looks quite workable so far. KotR actually has food for activations (which has been critized before for whatever reason) and the green requirements don't seem problematic (might change in actual games when facing Wastelands, but it looks solid).

Sylvan Library might be a great inclusion, but I haven't found any space for it so far.

Depending on how Vryn Wingmare turns out, 4 Noble Hiearch + 4 Wingmare alongside 4 Thalia could be another interesting direction to take the deck, since it does increase the number of potential T2 resistors.

[c2232]

Food for thought:

I'm currently experimenting with the green splash including Noble Hierarch and KotR:

I believe you are looking for the Maverick thread.

[Curby]

Pithy, but he really isn't. Look at the rest of the list to see what a small change it is to overall D&T. KOTR, much like Recruiter or Library, is just another way to provide library manipulation in a deck that desperately needs it. That it happens to be a great beater is just gravy. I'm less a fan of Hierarch though, as our important lock pieces all cost 2 (it would be better to have 2 mana turn 1 (even for a single turn) than 3 mana turn 2) and it competes with Vial and Mom for first-turn plays.

[MGB]

That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.

[Barook]

I believe you are looking for the Maverick thread.

And I believe you shouldn't post unless you have something of value to contribute.

Pithy, but he really isn't. Look at the rest of the list to see what a small change it is to overall D&T. KOTR, much like Recruiter or Library, is just another way to provide library manipulation in a deck that desperately needs it. That it happens to be a great beater is just gravy. I'm less a fan of Hierarch though, as our important lock pieces all cost 2 (it would be better to have 2 mana turn 1 (even for a single turn) than 3 mana turn 2) and it competes with Vial and Mom for first-turn plays.

My reasons for trying out Hierarchs are:
a) provide mana fixing in combination with Vial,
b) be accel without card disadvantage and
c) provide utility (body for equipment + Exalted triggers).
In the current iteration, it still retains the typical 15 white sources, but increases the total mana source count to 25 thanks to mana dorks. Fetchlands thinning the deck is also way to reduce manaflood, but the statistical effect should be negligible.

Hierarch into 2 drop + Wasteland on T2 is pretty good, especially when it's Thalia on the play. Or just 2-drop plus another 1-drop/Daze-proofness. The T3 options with Hiearch branch way more out and are far more interesting (taking T2 Hierach off Vial into account), like Porting + 2-drop, or a T3 Jitte swing, or other stuff. There's alot more to it than you might initially think. Whether or not it's worth it is a subject to testing. And I wouldn't priorize a Hierarch over Mom and especially Vial (since you can drop a Hierach for free from it anyway).

That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.

That would mean cutting into the creature count. I'm not a fan of that.

[Curby]

Has anyone given consideration to making a G/W Death n Taxes that plays 4 Collected Company?

If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?

That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.

Costs 5 with Thalia, unplayable with Teeg. Sylvan Library is a much better card advantage engine for the deck.

If you like it so much, against the recommendations of others, why not just play it yourself? Your results will show us how right you are and how wrong we are.

Or we could just wait till you suggest it again next month. I'll happily add that upcoming post to the quoted list of suggestions for the same card.

Actually, are you trolling? If so, good one.

[MGB]

If you like it so much, against the recommendations of others, why not just play it yourself? Your results will show us how right you are and how wrong we are.

Or we could just wait till you suggest it again next month. I'll happily add that upcoming post to the quoted list of suggestions for the same card.

Actually, are you trolling? If so, good one.

I'm sorry, I'm just really bored at work and forget that I'm probably repeating myself a bit too much in some of these posts.

[c2232]

And I believe you shouldn't post unless you have something of value to contribute.

I believe that it is valuable to point you in a better direction. The green "splash" has gone from 2 teeg and 2 pridemage (which I thought was interesting until I tested it) to basically a Maverick deck (not Maverick, but very very close). If you want quality responses and advice on your decklist you should post in the appropriate thread..... this is no longer it.