All B/R update speculation.

[Ingo]

If you can't beat a typical Storm player with Hymn + a reasonable clock, then I don't know what to say. If they Brainstom to hide cards it's likely even better because now they lose their next two draw steps and likely can't kill you until they draw more cards (broadly) and more specifically of whatever you hit.

? Storm ? I posted about decks running brainstorm and DTT, such as Omnitell. Discard has become way less efficient since DTT, especially for nonblue decks that rely on it in the combomatchup (like Jund). DTT made it even more difficult to take on combo without running blue for counters. If DTT stays, i'd like something efficient nonblue combohate printed in return.

[Noctalor]

Noctalor wins most ignorant poster award. What are you even going an about Maverick? Nothing yousaid about the deck was true at all. It is a pretty difficult deck to play and there actually felt like there was a real meta there. Maverick beat rug, rug beat fast combo, combo beat maverick (sometimes). Then there were meta predators like Nic Fit which beat Maverick and RUG but had a very poor combo match up. And stone blade was still the classic 50/50 deck. And of course there was still show and derp, but it wasn't absurd at all because even the fair decks had access to stuff like Karakas. Brainstorm was still at a high % but it wasn't like it is now where you are simply gimping yourself by not running the cantrip cartel

Tbf im talking about the pre delver metagame, post mistep ban where maverik was against stoneblade and show&tell/spiral.

Not talking about the thalia metagame, terminus became a card and maverik a fine deck, you had to take some serious choice and the timing for your plays was relevant.
Before terminus happened maverik was literally just about play on curve and trying to fetch an hatebear against combo, nothing more.

And the cantrip cartel (lol) existed back then, but a 9/9 kotr with a mor was too much to handle, back then maverik had an insane MU against all blue (non combo) decks and GSZ was obnoxious.

I remember some pretty hard plays like land NH, land choke, land zenith into kotr, wasteland sylvan, so many insane plays right?

[Megadeus]

I'm not really sure what your argument even is other than that you apparently got blown out by choke at some point. Are you implying that at some point maverick was somehow an overpowered deck?

[btm10]

? Storm ? I posted about decks running brainstorm and DTT, such as Omnitell. Discard has become way less efficient since DTT, especially for nonblue decks that rely on it in the combomatchup (like Jund). DTT made it even more difficult to take on combo without running blue for counters. If DTT stays, i'd like something efficient nonblue combohate printed in return.

If you're planning to grind, I agree. If you're saying that Liliana isn't a hard lock against Omni anymore, I agree. It's not like Jund and Shardless (which are the most prominent non-combo decks where discard is their primary form of disruption) don't have other tools, and all any disruption does against combo is buy you time. Discard still does that even in the face of Dig, and even if they play around it.

[Noctalor]

I'm not really sure what your argument even is other than that you apparently got blown out by choke at some point. Are you implying that at some point maverick was somehow an overpowered deck?

Well, it really was overpowered back in the day, because nothing like terminus existed (and to be honest, imho terminus is total bs too, the card could be way more balanced).

But you cant tell me old maverik was a skill intensive deck to pilot, you just had to play your cards, most of the times even playing bad was ok because the deck was just that good.

I mean, maybe its me, but i dont see the skill in for example:
Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that
Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy
Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy
Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE
Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enought to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck) and a 10/10 able to fetch it if needed

Maverik had a super good MU vs any stoneblade, an autowin against tempo (remember no delver, so we are talking about 8 creatures RUG and merfolks) an ok MU against combo (back then karakas was a big deal against show and tell and they had no grisel, and spiral tide usually gave you time to try to set up some hate, ANT was rather bad but a random GSZ into gaddock was still game) and a 50/50 MU against landeed (maybe a bit harder, but landeed was already going out of the metagame) and in general a good or at least 50/50 MU against any aggro.

And i remember back then a LOT of bad players were able to top8 tournaments here in italy, and it really was one of the only times i saw that many doing it.
If i remember correctly was back in 2010/2011?

[Julian23]

I didn't really check to see what you guys are discussing, but let me assure you that in mid/late 2011, Maverick was definitely one of the harder decks to pilot correctly.

[maharis]

I didn't really check to see what you guys are discussing, but let me assure you that in mid/late 2011, Maverick was definitely one of the harder decks to pilot correctly.

I don't know man, you could just tap out on turn 2 for your do-nothing-till-you-untap enchantment or resolve 3+cmc sorceries and there was nothing anyone could do about it!

I'm just glad I'm reading all Noctalor's posts in George Costanza's voice.

[Noctalor]

I don't know man, you could just tap out on turn 2 for your do-nothing-till-you-untap enchantment.

So sylvan is a bad card in control MU?

I think im fine doing nothing on turn 2 and then ancestral recall twice, and ponder each draw step.

[Fatal]

I mean, maybe its me, but i dont see the skill in for example:
Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that
Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy
Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy
Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE
Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enought to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck) and a 10/10 able to fetch it if needed

Maverik had a super good MU vs any stoneblade, an autowin against tempo (remember no delver, so we are talking about 8 creatures RUG and merfolks) an ok MU against combo (back then karakas was a big deal against show and tell and they had no grisel, and spiral tide usually gave you time to try to set up some hate, ANT was rather bad but a random GSZ into gaddock was still game) and a 50/50 MU against landeed (maybe a bit harder, but landeed was already going out of the metagame) and in general a good or at least 50/50 MU against any aggro.

I wrote first good Primer on TheSource about Maverick, and I strongly disagree it's brainless, as Julian23 said deck was mostly reactive (it's power was toolbox which could resolve and stop most opponent strategy / line of play by most decks), but since reaction wasn't stack based It required knowledge about opponent line of play to forecast specify tool before it happens. Some lines was easier, some was much more though. Since wincon wasn't enough fast as aggressive decks or combo decks those days - race wasn't an option.

Let me invalid all your arguments one by one:

Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that

- every tempo deck could do that - you also forgot about how popular was spell snare those days. Also try to win with it vs combo when you was dead after it resolve, it works only vs white based control/midrange.

Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy

Natural Order wasn't Maverick tool most of the time - It was NO-CB-Bant strategy, and Proggy was easy handle by any mass color removal like Perish (quite popular), Virtue Ruin, even Wing Shards or premature Extract (used in 43 Lands Control).

Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy

- Humility, Cursed Totem, Combo out turn 1-2, S&T-> Sneak Attack, NO ->progenitus. There was many strategies which couldn't be answered by GSZ - anyway thank you for admire that builds was very custom-able which could lead to proper construction for specify meta.

Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE

- MoR could be answered for whole turn. Jitte + flyer, or just two removals could break it, looking at actual meta where we have TNN it isn't a problem. Also -1/-1 effects was all the time present in available card pool - It just wasn't used. Since MoR hould be also hosed by Needle, Engineered Explosives, or just Engineered Plague used as SB vs Elves or Goblins.

Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enough to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck)

- Wasteland which was in Stoneblade deck, main wincon vs maverick was always Jace not SFM so I don't see your point here. Do you complain that deck wasn't auto-scoop vs S&T -> Emrakul, control decks had Jace, Goblins had Stingscourger, black decks had Edicts, Green/white had KotR-> Karakas.

[maharis]

So sylvan is a bad card in control MU?

I think im fine doing nothing on turn 2 and then ancestral recall twice, and ponder each draw step.

Sylvan is a great card in the control matchup. It is OK for there to be good cards against control decks, or even for control decks to have bad matchups.

[iamajellydonut]

Let me invalid all your arguments one by one:

rabble rabble rabble

When you preview what you write and it turns out to be an absurdly long and segmented post, it should always serve remind you that your response is unnecessary, poorly written, and accomplishes nothing.

[Ace/Homebrew]

your response is unnecessary, poorly written, and accomplishes nothing.

But... this is theSource's B/R update speculation thread. Doesn't that describe most of the posts here?

[GundamGuy]

Sad that nothing made it off the Banned List this time.

Also sad that DTT wasn't banned.

Oh well September will be here soon enough.

[CutthroatCasual]

But... this is theSource's B/R update speculation thread. Doesn't that describe most of the posts here?

Doesn't speculation imply analysis based on trends, not baseless boo-hoo and "the best deck is wrecks mine which happens to be a poor meta choice, pls ban."

[Norm]

Sad that nothing made it off the Banned List this time.

Also sad that DTT wasn't banned.

Oh well September will be here soon enough.

Looking forward to your disappointment!

This thread is a really great laugh sometimes, stay classy folks.

[Quasim0ff]

Looking forward to your disappointment!

This thread is a really great laugh sometimes, stay classy folks.

It's like... The perfect pocket of time.

Inb4 3 months in the future:

Brainstorm is oppressive, x card is seriously flawed. PLS BAN.

3 days later:

NO BAN? WIZARDS DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LEGACY, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY MONO GRIZZLY BEARS.

[Norm]

It's like... The perfect pocket of time.

Inb4 3 months in the future:

Brainstorm is oppressive, x card is seriously flawed. PLS BAN.

3 days later:

NO BAN? WIZARDS DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LEGACY, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY MONO GRIZZLY BEARS.

I like you.

[CorwinB]

It's like... The perfect pocket of time.

Inb4 3 months in the future:

Brainstorm is oppressive, x card is seriously flawed. PLS BAN.

3 days later:

NO BAN? WIZARDS DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LEGACY, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY MONO GRIZZLY BEARS.

Somebody at Wizards must really like this movie :

[Chatto]

it's like... The perfect pocket of time.

Inb4 3 months in the future:

Brainstorm is oppressive, x card is seriously flawed. Pls ban.

3 days later:

No ban? Wizards dont give a shit about legacy, i want to be able to play mono grizzly bears.

lol!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Doesn't speculation imply analysis based on trends?

No.

spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
2.
investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
"the company's move into property speculation"