All B/R update speculation.

[Bosque]

Please, Standard decks are way more powerful than D&T.

signed
Goblins player.

Truth. I got my ass handed to me by some standard legal pile playing death and taxes for funnies. My mana denial didn't work (the deck ran tons of lands along with mana dorks), my creatures were tiny, and standard doesn't win through non-creature spells so Thalia pretty much sucked. I died to some huge dragon with hexproof. Yes, I had Batterskull with an equipped sword down and I still lost.

It was really, really funny to watch a deck designed to target the legacy meta whiff entirely and die to some standard cards.

[Lord Seth]

Chaining rituals into a first turn spell that says 'randomly discard all your relevant cards' would bring me bucketloads of joy. Effectively winning the game is just as good as actually winning the game.

Except you're not effectively winning the game with that play. Double Dark Ritual into Mind Twist requires you use up 3 cards in order to get rid of 4. That's the same amount of card advantage as Hymn to Tourach gives you. I don't see that as "effectively winning the game" any more than casting a Hymn to Tourach is.

Far better would be to double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam and actually win the game.

[Dice_Box]

Truth. I got my ass handed to me by some standard legal pile playing death and taxes for funnies. My mana denial didn't work (the deck ran tons of lands along with mana dorks), my creatures were tiny, and standard doesn't win through non-creature spells so Thalia pretty much sucked. I died to some huge dragon with hexproof. Yes, I had Batterskull with an equipped sword down and I still lost.

It was really, really funny to watch a deck designed to target the legacy meta whiff entirely and die to some standard cards.

Took out Vintage Grixis with Legacy Painter in a best of 3 before. Decks are tuned to play against other decks in their format. Outside of that format interesting things happen that mean nothing at all.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Edit: Man, that makes two I've added to my ignore list today...

[Crimhead]

Again, I think a good test of these things would be the 'what if everyone played the same deck' scenario.

Part of the draw to Legacy is getting to face a wide variety of decks and archetypes. If too many people wee playing the same style, I would get bored of the format.

Also, playing Belcher is not trolling! People play Belcher in attempt to exploit a (suspected) low FOW meta. Just like people play Dredge to exploit a meta light on graveyard hate.

[Julian23]

In fact people play Dredge becasue it's more of a lifestyle choice.

[Echelon]

In fact people play Dredge becasue it's more of a lifestyle choice.

Dredge, like punk or goth, is a state of mind.

[Blastoderm]

Who said anything about feelings? I go to legacy tournaments with the hopes of playing interesting competitive games that involve a lot of interaction and decision making. These things are at the core of the game. Non-games are bad for magic - that's exactly why they just changed the mulligan rule. If you show up at a tournament with a non-competitive deck that doesn't lead itself to interesting games then what exactly are you there for? The playmat?

I'm there to beat people playing turn 1 mother of runes.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Took out Vintage Grixis with Legacy Painter in a best of 3 before. Decks are tuned to play against other decks in their format. Outside of that format interesting things happen that mean nothing at all.

While we're on the "comical stories from crossing the formats" I 2-0'd Miracles with my Oona EDH deck. Mind's Desire is pretty good against Counterbalance apparently .

I'm there to beat people playing turn 1 mother of runes.

I'm there to punish blue players for their sins.

[iatee]

People play Belcher in attempt to exploit a (suspected) low FOW meta. Just like people play Dredge to exploit a meta light on graveyard hate.

I think this is the core of the problem - it's a 'punisher' deck for non-FOW decks when legacy's biggest problem is too many blue decks. So T1 combo decks are weaker than ever, overall. But they still serve as a long-term constraint on deckbuilding. 'Fun' players get to play anything and scrub out eventually, competitive players are limited to a shell of 4 brainstorm 4 FOW shell + lots of blue cards to pitch.

[Blastoderm]

I think this is the core of the problem - it's a 'punisher' deck for non-FOW decks when legacy's biggest problem is too many blue decks. So T1 combo decks are weaker than ever, overall. But they still serve as a long-term constraint on deckbuilding. 'Fun' players get to play anything and scrub out eventually, competitive players are limited to a shell of 4 brainstorm 4 FOW shell + lots of blue cards to pitch.

With such a huge card pool there will always be combo decks and thus people will always play blue -- in their combo decks and against them. By your logic we should have a 300 card banlist which would bring us to 1990s Standard.

And I don't understand something -- you strive for interactive games yet D&T's goal is to severely limit or even prevent your opponent from being able to play the game.

[ReAnimator]

HOW IS EVERYONE STILL RESPONDING?!?!?!?!

Y'all being trolled hard.

Either that or we have found one of the least logical and rational people in the game.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Sometimes you should look at your post and do some simple word substitution to see how inane your statement is.

It's so cute when people confuse "strategy I don't like" with "bad luck-based deck".

This is a terrible metric. You suggesting it multiple times a page doesn't make it any better.

Your statement is tangential to the thread title.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude but what are you talking about?

Because he's functioning off some subjective personal principle that he restricts himself to in order to define fun for himself. But, if you don't use his principle to define fun, then the statements become rather useless.

You should probably stay away from competitive Magic if your feelings are going to get hurt from a deck someone is playing. And from forums discussing competitive Magic also.

He's a D&T player. Should stick to Standard.

Different people's definitions of fun do not necessarily align with your own. I'm sorry this simple concept seems to escape you.

A little life advice - you're going to continue to be miserable if you expect the world to revolve around what you want.

And I don't understand something -- you strive for interactive games yet D&T's goal is to severely limit or even prevent your opponent from being able to play the game.

Whave found one of the least logical and rational people in the game.

[Finn]

This thread moves too fast. I can't keep up.


Death and Taxes needs an interactive game. It seeks to get all up in the other deck's business, forcing the other deck to backpedal as it to tries to interact on terms that benefit Death and Taxes. From the perspective of one who wants to win on these terms, Iatee's perspective makes perfect sense. More than any other kind of deck, control decks need to keep a finger on the pulse of the format in which they operate. As such, Death and Taxes is pruned to excel in a world that sees a lot of durdling. You do feel cheated facing Belcher with this deck most of the time. But them's the breaks. You don't like it, bring Merfolk or something.

[Ace/Homebrew]

As such, Death and Taxes is pruned to excel in a world that sees a lot of durdling. You do feel cheated facing Belcher with this deck most of the time. But them's the breaks. You don't like it, bring Merfolk or something.

But would you enjoy a meta of 100% Merfolk? It would be terribly uninteractive with all the fish Islandwalking past each other. Merfolk shouldn't be allowed in Legacy because it sucks when 100% of the meta is Merfolk.

[iatee]

Guys...I'm more than just a Death and Taxes player...

Anyway my points in summary:

- Too-fast-for-interaction combo is generally bad for magic across formats. It's more like performance art than playing a game with someone.

- It's acceptable in legacy because:

a. We've accepted a long-term fate as the 'most people play will always play FoW' format and
b. Wizards doesn't consider legacy a showcase format - it's pretty much an ugly stepchild. There are few tournaments that matter anyway so the stakes are always low. Nobody is losing Pro Tour cause they faced belcher r1. Modern combo decks are far more likely to get bans because wizards is pretty invested in modern's long-term future.

- Again, I'm not actually pushing for a ban here because you would actually have to ban quite a few cards to shut off every belcher style deck anyway. I'm just pointing out that fast combo serves as a long-term constraint on the format and is just another thing ensuring that blue-based decks will always be the safest choice for a real tournament. If you think that the number of same-blue-shell decks is a problem for the format then this is just one of the contributing factors to that problem.

[solidbass]

We should all be celebrating that DTT is banned! How awesome is that? Cantrips no longer function as land drops too. Maybe even black vise will do something in the format! Personally, I'm quite pleased with the BR announcement and I think everyone else should be too. Except for omnitell players hahaha. Homogeneity will decrease among blue deck (I believe) and more attrition based decks will be playable again (I believe)

[Spam]

Reminds me of the guy who first tried to Ancient Grudge a Sphinx of the Steel Wind; judge comes over and explains how protection works. Guy nods, then casts Krosan Grip on it. Game Loss.

Or the guy who was so tricky, he cast Fire//Ice on LED in the opponent's upkeep. Fun fact: unlike Lotus, LED doesn't tap to activate.

Man, magic is such an awesome game)
I still remember the good old days when people tried to block my Goblin Piledriver.... with Lord of Atlantis....

Yes, I have a phone and I'm not afraid to use it.

[danyul]

Protip for surviving MTG The Source:

Look at the poster's join date. Look at your calendar. If the year is the same, then ignore their post.

[dte]

That's quite a warm welcoming method.