Creature (15)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Death Rite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hunt Master of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser
4 Veteran Explorer
Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
Planeswalker (2)
1 vraska
1 garruk, primal hunter
Sorcery (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifact (2)
2 sensei top
Land (23)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
2 surgical
1 Golgari Charm
1 krosan Grip
2 Hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 Dryad militant
1 sylvan library
2 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers
Sb can always use work. I am lily-less because they are incredibly expensive online and I am not made of money so I made do. Hunt master is a house. Duress over seize because burn is here and there online. Courser has been alright but hurts against goyf. Please feel free to criticize or ask questions. I do need to get the 4 grove, bills come first. Sorry.
I think you need to drop a creature or 2. Jund is much better at controlling when you hand isn't all creatures. I used to run courser, and found it very lackluster. Also personal choice but I would move either thrun or thragtusk to the SB. If your deck is too top heavy you won't make it their without vet, which will happen from time to time.Originally Posted by Ricardio
@Tilzinger - I usually get labeled Bug control as most of the decks I play fall into that bucket so I am sure its just habit.
@jund list-
Drop courser, 2nd huntmaster and the broodmate. Your curve is waaaay to high on creatures. I am also not a fan of the Drs in the jund deck do to space issues. You will be blowing deed more often with jund than any other color.
Do not run vraska, that card is terrible really, I do like the garruk as it is the best walker in the jund colors for this deck (in the creature maker role)
You need lilys. Like 2 minimum better 3. I ran 3 when I played punishing fit. Setting pfire and grove up with lily is the main draw to this color combo. This deck also folds to combo but the chance at hitting with a double therapy into lily gives you some chance at stealing the first game which is significant for me.
For the sb I would run reb over carpet. I am not a fan carpet in punishing fire. You are not ramping in the matchups you want carpet but playing a control deck.
I can see cutting courser but the others are fine for me right now.
Vraska has been great. She is usually a vindicate and then catches bolt.
Lily is over 104 tickets each on mtgo, not willing to dedicate that much online, sorry.
I have never been a fan of red blast in this deck but I will try it since it seems good online.
I like carpet against miracle and other decks of the sort where explorer isn't as one sided.
I appreciate the criticism. Don't take my rebuttal as stubborn ignorance. I prefer to stick with things and learn.
I want to iron out the main and shake up the sb.
Lily is incredible in this deck. I played 3 when I had it irl. I CANNOT justify 315$ for electronic Lily's.
I know it limits the deck and takes some amount of credit from me but that is life.
I look forward to hearing more from you all.
Thanks again!
Not to be picky but vraska is far from vindicate as she hits non lands, which is closer to maelstrom pulse without the obliterating token bonus.
I have tried her and found that she seems really powerful while I was playing her, I never regretted taking her out of my 75 because I never felt I needed her.
I have tried carpet against miracles and found it to be a dead card half the time because of how much easy it is to make your land drops, the ramp is nice but we don't want to race miracles becuase then we fall to terminus. We can grind them out of resources as a jund deck.
Punishing Fire NicFit:
4x DRS and Vraska. Just because i can.
main
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Sideboard
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemetal Blast
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Went X-1 in our weekly, losing only to Infect (stupid Inkmoth god hand...)
4 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
15
2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
9
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tsunami
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
For changes, sometimes, I missed Recurring Nightmare. I think I'll sub Qasali Pridemage for Rec Sage, since having instant speed destruction would have stopped Inkmoth many times. Revoker was excellent. Elspeth was very good. Due to some bad luck, I wasn't super explosive, I was just grindy with my Veterans. I didn't get any crazy turn 2 Rhinos or anything, just solid grinding. I think I'll be trying the SFM build and see where I want to go from here. Rhino is a crazy big threat, but I did have a bit of trouble with Angler (sometimes). Safekeeper was the straight nutter butters.
-Matt
@ matt : how were the painful truth ?
I like the idea of safekeeper, but maybe in the sideboard against white decks (rhino survives non white removal), mostly because my list is tight as it is (playing 4 rhino and stoneforge).
About substituting quasali for rec sage, I've made the switch but for me it was a way to have a 5/6 rhino so I could ignore opposing Goyf/Tasigur and race some zombie fish. Also, while it cost the same amount of mana in total, 3+1 is much flexible than 4 and let you play around daze and spell pierce.
The body being a lot bigger is relevant because I think that rhino fit is the most agro version of nic fit .
Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.
I have an old build with Dryad, equipment and Sylvan and no deeds. I'll repost it since it's an example of a deedless dryad list. And it seems interesting as an experimental build. Some meta choices have become irrelevant, the Persecutions should be Paths.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post855246
While painful truths is only harmonize for 1 less mana I think that is a big deal. It goes from a card that is really only online with a vet dying to a card playable even turn 2 with a Drs. I would recommend 2 in most lists.
@jund lists- If people want to play things like vraska then why ask for feedback? That card is not legacy playable unless your entire meta is U/w miracles and blade decks. If people have budget concerns that is understandable but at some point the entire deck changes. punishing fire is worth playing not really because it kills little guys (deed and decay already do that) its that in combo with lily. Running 3-4 vets and another 4 Drs in a control deck is waaaaay to many 1 mana dorks. you will draw poorly as the game goes forward which is also why carpet is not good. carpet is a card that scapeshift and maybe junk can play due to the way those games play out. Jund is control deck.
Hum.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post905974
I liked Painful Truths quite a bit. I think 2-3 is a good number.
-Matt
Painful Truths looks really nice for the Jund builds. For the white builds, is the 3rd card enough better than doubling as a removal spell? I'm comparing it to Abzan Charm here.
Yes, 6 drop are more powerfull then 4 drops. However you don't always get the six mana to cast them or be too late. Rutic thuar seems to be a better sideborad card for combo.
Id say yes, since we already have so much removal.
Talking with Koby, suggested I cut Safekeeper and make room for Sun Titan and Lilianas. I disagree in theory since it can be hard to break that symmetry in Junk versus Jund which can discard Fires, but now with Truths it may not be as bad.
Possible change:
-1 Safekeeper, -1 Rhino, -1 Elspeth, -1 Qasali. Add 3 Liliana and 1 Sun Titan. Also possible: another E Wit, Courser, 2 sfm 2 equip, etc.
tilzinger or jbone making it to mead hall tonight? I should be but I will most likely sleeve up a bug midrange deck with Drs and painful truths. Miracles was pretty big last week there. So either this or I could just jam tusk after tusk into the maw of terminus too so idk haha
This is a slightly updated version of the BUG list i've been running for a while.
Latest changes are DTT -> Painful Truths and adding Titania and DRS to test.
Mainboard (61)
24 Lands
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
14 Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Veteran Explorer
20 Other spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Cryptic Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Painful Truths
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard (15)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thragtusk
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
haven't had the chance to really test this yet, i would however love to hear some other people's thoughts on it :)
I'll give you mine so we could exchange some ideas.
This is a no "cunning wish" list.
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ætherling
2 Baleful Strix
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
1) Deck philosophy
This deck is very similar to any control deck using 4 ponder as a strong setup plan.
"Ponder miracle" tries to assemble countertop and I am trying to assemble veteran + therapy to gain massive advantage.
By doing so (4 ponder list), you can decrease drastically the amount of lands needed in such a control deck.
The list might be stretched to the maximum as I have elected to play 20 lands. But rest assured, I've done my maths due diligences and a lot of tests so far (either with this list or with my wish Fit list) so that I'm comfortable with this number. Nevertheless, I won't blame anyone for playing another one (at least an utility one, be it a manland or something else)
I have debated more than enough here about the sheer power of ponder over gitaxian probe or over SDT. If gitaxian could have been during a glimpse of time, a serious contender, since DTT ban, it has lost a lot of its flavor.
As far as PT (Painful truths) is concerned, it has replaced DTT as a 2-of for testing purposes (as I was impressed by the results in my Junk Fit list), BUT 2 SDT might as well be the way to go. Time will tell.
Anyway, as every other Nic Fit list, your main goal is to go over the top and BUG has ALL the necessary tools (including access to the most powerful color in its shell,or at least the most represented in our format).
2) Creature selection
- Snapcaster has been included because it provides such a unique effect. Games against miracles were also a bit harder without him. It is to BUG fit what Eternal witness is to Jund or Junk colors.
- Scavenging ooze is a necessary evil in such deck as it is one if not your only "out" to grave based strategies which are usually designed to beat BUG strategies (PF is a real enemy, grave based combo decks etc...). It is also a cheap (by cheap consider cheap + not requiring GG) life gainer or a huge beast in some MU (Burn and D&T to name it). Ability that is always more handy than not. DRS might be better at gaining life, easier to cast but is also easier to kill/to hate or play around.
- Baleful strix is also a necessary evil. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with the guy. I always feel unimpressed by the guy, mostly because of the stress it puts on your very first turns (does not require green and so is a theorically nonbo with veteran)) but each time I ended up cut him, I have regretted it.
- Glen Elendra is my muse. Usually played SB as a 1 of in a lot of BUG Fit along with Notion Thief, I have elected to play her MD, instead of a pair of Thragtusk. Her effect is no match in legacy in my humble opinion. Sure, Thrag is life with powerful ETB and LTB triggers and has a professional left-swing that can knock out an opponent but GLE has won my preference. Her lower CMC and evasive capacity were the real deal. Not to mention her unique effect and good synergy with the whole deck. Pitchable to FOW was ice on the cake.
- Aetherling is the beater. Far less powerful than the good old Grave Titan. I have won lots of games against miracle but lost some others because he was not G.Star. As winning G1 against miracle, to avoid draw brackets, was a "deciding" key factor, the guy took G.Titan's slot. And if you are still wondering whether he is truly an edge over miracle, just...trust me or play test at least 20 games to get a good grip.
3) Spell selection
3.1) Removal package:
-2 Deed
-1 Toxic
-3 AD
-1 Maelstrom
The 3rd AD might be one too many. With the resurgence of Elves / D&T / S&S, playing a 1-of golgari charm MD is a change to consider/make. I will.
Snapcaster is shining here.
3.2) Disruption package
- 4 CT -> pretty standard
- 4 FOW -> I would not argue here. Some like it hot, some don't. My ground is full of unfair strategies, going out "uncovered" is asking for sexual diseases...
3.3) Planesuckers
- 2 Jace: I guess we can argue here. Liliana was cut from MD during DTT time. Also she was going against the rule n°1 when playing such a BUG list:
"NO CARDS REQUIRING DOUBLE COLOR REQUIREMENT UNDER CMC 4."
Yeah, that is what you get when you are playing a very tight mana that binds you to some *ruleofthumb*.
With such a great density of spells you must ensure you will be able to cast them all, at least G1.
Once the coast is clear, G2 and G3 you can go crazy.
Liliana will stay a SB tool until I revise my judgment or til' the meta burst my face.
4) Sideboard
To fight back against the public enemy n°1 (Blue to name it), one shall always remember that most opponent will side in any anti blue card they might have access to. This usually means that postboard, I invite anyone playing BUG to go "Blacker" or "Greener" or any "mixed BG grill" that looks saucy for you and salty/spicy for your opponent.
Playing a 4 ponder list grants you a large choice.
I have always been very fond of a huge 1-of pile which can attack several different MU:
4.1) Against grave strategies
- a grave wipe = here, nihil spellbomb because nuking your own grave(relic of progenitus for exemple) can be detrimental to snapy shenanigans
- an anti grave = leyline
- 2 anti combo / recursion = 1 permanent spell with "cage" and 1 instant spell "extirpate". I do believe the "TS+surgical screw you" scenario to be very unlikely because of the odds that I prefer "extirpate".
4.2) Against storm combo and some control
- 3 TS = I believe you can do a mixed grill with 1 duress (hedging a bit more against burn) / 1 TS / 1 HTT
- 1 Fluster = uncounterable stuff snapcastable ? Yes sir.
- 1 Liliana = If you survive the early turns, having a bitch bitching every turn is money wise.
- 1 Vendilion = Clock+ Disruption. If your field is burn heavy and you feel safe about combo MU, Thragtusk is a good replacement to Clique.
4.3) Aggro from the Ghetto
- 1 Engineered plague = Tribal decks public enemy. NoSB can also be an option but...more expensive. Rather be digging for other answers if my EP got nuked than dead with NoSB in hand because of 4-CMC...
- 1 Trinket mage = kamikaze chumper calling for backups
- 1 Engineered explosives =another valuable catch'all
- 1 Cage => mostly for GSZ decks and green f.ckers.
4.4) Swiss army knives
- 1 Trinket
- 1 Pithing
- 1 Krosan
Hope you enjoyed the ride as much as I enjoyed the writting.
/happy to discuss
Ralf.
Went X-0 with RhinoTime on my birthday. How...Fitting...get it? :P
3 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
14
2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
11
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
Courser was nice to have, but felt small. 2nd E. Wit wasn't really ever relevant. Missed having Elspeth, Knight Errant. Liliana didn't really break any backs, and the matchups didn't really need her. I think I like Courser enough to try him out again, but I'll bring back Elspeth. I've been missing having Dryad Arbor a few times, so I think I'm going to try him and maybe just some loose equipments with no SFM (2010 technology, baby).
I don't really miss not having Recurring Nightmare. Painful Truths has been excellent everytime. Sylvan has also been great. I haven't had a ton of explosive starts with Vets in the past little bit, and you sometimes do feel behind against decks like Maverick until you hit multiple Rhinos and/or multiple Deeds/Deluges. I might go back to trying a Thragtusk again as well. Since I don't have time to test each major matchup for 2-3 hours because of school, if anyone wants to run the Rhino list against the following matchups, that'd be wonderful help so I can rep at Seattle!
Miracles
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver
I feel like if Lands is going to be popular, especially moreso control since it's better against Miracles, having the Safekeeper may not be terrible, but that's where Thrun and Sigarda shine anyway.
I agree with most of the Ralf post. I have been a proponent of probe in the past and would probably still run it in Bug but it is a lot worse than it was with DTT so running ponder is pretty close.
I ran 21 land in my Bug fit (with 2 tarpits/9 fetches/5 duals/5 basics) and bug is absolutely playing the game of a control deck with a low land count game. I also have/would drop Lily from the main. She is better in deck that can abuse her symmetry or doesnt aim to go as over the top. I am on 2 painful truths so in the glen elendra spots I have 2 tusk instead. GE is better against combo decks but tusk is still a beating against midrange. I also ran 3 Jace and do not discount the idea of bouncing tusk and replaying it every turn.
I do not run ooze main deck but do have 1 in the side. I wouldnt run them main deck but I do agree with why Ralf likes them there but I must not have the same value on it.
SB is a bit different. I ran 2 surgical as I had 3 snapcasters, also 2 TS, 1 grip, 1 decay, 1 deluge (so I didnt run 1 main) I had 2 negate, 2 liliana, I have 1 top for the grindy games as well. I ran 1 glen elendra. I also ran 1 Notion thief because its Notion thief and sometimes he gives you a free win. Against storm or now sneak, enchantress (for some reason I have played that 2 times in the last 2 weeks by different ppl) or whatver that cannot remove it and of course the brainstorm steal. I had 1 flex spot in my board I was trying things like lily origins, dispel, a stronghold in the board, etc.
@Matt- I always like having 2 witness in my jund list but with stronghold you may not need the 2nd. also you have more ways of raw card advantage with 2 truth and 1 library that it is probably cuttable. I would cut courser first however. I am not impressed by that card. I know with top it can be an a nice value engine but I think it is fairly low power.
Edit- I do not have the 3 white duals (white duals? yuck! lol) If I can either pick up some cheap ones or get some loaners I will play the lists you post in my weekly and any weekend event I go to for the next (3 weeks is it?) few weeks. I also have some people in my group that play miracles and shardless almost exclusively so i could maybe get some testing in on those.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
