All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

I would like to have more data, I will get of it what I can. I am willing to coincide that having all 2871 decks from a Legacy GP is better than having the top 32 only. If that day comes, you won't hear from me for three days after. You also will not be able to pull me away from Excel. It sounds like heaven.

Sadly I don't see it happening. What your talking about does happen though in personally run Vintage events. Whole breakdowns and crunches are published after for events normally around 130 or so people. It's great. Sadly it's not a common thing here.

So then we move to the data we have. The top preforming lists in single events do sometimes get used as a straw man by both sides, I don't care. No matter who posts it, I deem it insignificant. What I look at now are trends. Because if you go to the first page of the DTB thread you will find my spreadsheet, with the data available to all and you will see the trends.

Even if all we look at are top 8s, 6 years worth of top 8s is a very large and significant pool of information. It's enough to make educated comments, to base debate and to analyse. Even if we had more data, I don't think that the trends over the years of data we have would change. We have a statistically significant amount for working out trends and it's in those trends for which I argue and defend my views.

[nedleeds]

Why is any of that data more compelling than a non-basic land 32/32'ing the highest level legacy event (a GP)? Seems like a colossal fucking waste to provide data when things are clearly decided on 'feelings', 'skill intensives' and 'pillars of the format'.

[Dice_Box]

I am not sure what your trying to say mate.

[Crimhead]

Eh? Who you are referring to?

I would assume he means me, but I've been rather silent lately!

I'm not ignoring anybody, I just got very busy last weekend and "fell behind". The conversations been very interesting, well informed. And well argued. You and DTE have both done admirable work in gathering statistics, thank you both!

I'll try to get caught up on the topic over the weekend!

[Lemnear]

I would assume he means me, but I've been rather silent lately!

I'm not ignoring anybody, I just got very busy last weekend and "fell behind". The conversations been very interesting, well informed. And well argued. You and DTE have both done admirable work in gathering statistics, thank you both!

I'll try to get caught up on the topic over the weekend!

Ya welcome. I may look into some more data for the DtBs and compare how the other decks fare compared to their share or take a closer look at the online metagame. Will see if I can find time for that at the weekend. Was buisy with work this week

[Ace/Homebrew]

I am not sure what your trying to say mate.

Why spend time collecting and analyzing data when the results do not correlate with action (bannings) from Wizards.


I'm not agreeing, just translating American into Australian.
I like the data to see trends and such, but I also know that is its only value.

[Megadeus]

I am not sure what your trying to say mate.

The point is, you have had multiple top 8's of major legacy events have 32/32 possible brainstorms represented and it got banned. So arguing statistics as being the reason to ban a deck is obviously dumb because there's an obvious favoritism when it comes to certain cards that are considered "skill intensive" and "pillars of the format" no matter their level of dominance

[Lemnear]

The point is, you have had multiple top 8's of major legacy events have 32/32 possible brainstorms represented and it got banned. So arguing statistics as being the reason to ban a deck is obviously dumb because there's an obvious favoritism when it comes to certain cards that are considered "skill intensive" and "pillars of the format" no matter their level of dominance

#BanFetchlands

[Jain_Mor]

Has a fetchland ever 32/32'd a GP?

If one did that would also surely belie a power imbalance in the format.

[btm10]

The point is, you have had multiple top 8's of major legacy events have 32/32 possible brainstorms represented and it got banned. So arguing statistics as being the reason to ban a deck is obviously dumb because there's an obvious favoritism when it comes to certain cards that are considered "skill intensive" and "pillars of the format" no matter their level of dominance

It's not certain cards, it's uniquely Brainstorm (arguably alongside Ponder and Force of Will).

There's no point in even including them in a banned list discussion because they have permanent immunity from banning. They don't warp the format, they define it. You can be frustrated about that, but it's obviously true that a different set of rules are applied to those cards.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue there are three "Pillars" in Legacy that have to stay untouched. Duals, Fetches and Force. All else should be debatable.

That said, I will go to my old comments. All we can do personally is play or not play, that's the only real control we have. All else, such as a thread like this, is just entertainment.

[btm10]

I would argue there are three "Pillars" in Legacy that have to stay untouched. Duals, Fetches and Force. All else should be debatable.

That said, I will go to my old comments. All we can do personally is play or not play, that's the only real control we have. All else, such as a thread like this, is just entertainment.

I can see the argument for this, though I don't think duals would ever enter in to the discussion anyway. My comment was less about how things ought to be and more about how they are.

[Lemnear]

Has a fetchland ever 32/32'd a GP?

If one did that would also surely belie a power imbalance in the format.

There were 56 Fetchlands in GP Pagues Top8 and 63 Fetchlands in GP Columbus, turning on all the Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT shenanaigans. And people complain about 32 Brainstorm copies? The only reason the cantrips get the hate and not the cards which allow them to cherrypick among the top 3 cards of your library, is that the non-blue faction wants to remain their perfect mana for their 3color/4color decks. Thia discussion is far from honest.

Why spend time collecting and analyzing data when the results do not correlate with action (bannings) from Wizards.

Because we need a common base to discuss the matter here and can't keep arguing based on "my metagame is fine" or "my metagame is 50% [deck]! We need a ban!"

I would argue there are three "Pillars" in Legacy that have to stay untouched. Duals, Fetches and Force. All else should be debatable.

I don't think we should create holy cows in any format per definition. Its a matter of time and experience to see if cards harm diversity or create a dominant subtype of decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

holy cows

=

[nedleeds]

The point is, you have had multiple top 8's of major legacy events have 32/32 possible brainstorms represented and it got banned. So arguing statistics as being the reason to ban a deck is obviously dumb because there's an obvious favoritism when it comes to certain cards that are considered "skill intensive" and "pillars of the format" no matter their level of dominance

in before #banisland #goplaymodern and #formatdefining also some non sequitur about vintage followed by a personal attack.

[slave]

I would argue there are three "Pillars" in Legacy that have to stay untouched. Duals, Fetches and Force. All else should be debatable.

I agree with this, all else should be up for debate, including whether some cards get an unbanning.


One cards I'm curious about is Flash. Yes I realise it's power, yes I realise an un-ban is unlikely.
I'm sure anyone who played against it remembers how Hulk-Flash played out, but I'm still wondering whether it will ever come back.
Currently, storm decks now have some considerable hate like Chalice, Thorn, Thalia etc., to get through, and are being played nowhere near as much as they used to in my (limited) experience.
A lot has changed since 2007, it's not just tax effects, we now have stuff like Leyline of Sanctity that just stops the win-con for the deck cold (Disciple of the Vault)

I can't help but wonder if half the reason it's still banned is because of the creature creep, aka Griselbrand & friends, making Flash far too degenerate to survive another stint in the wild without copping another ban eventually.
Or.... potentially limiting designers from dreaming up the next oppressive monster we all hate, that every single reanimator player will shell out $100 for.

[Dice_Box]

1u Draw 14, cast Shallow Grave seems good.

[Stevestamopz]

"Brainstorm is fine because combo, control and beatdown use it, so therefore it's a pillar."

Prey tell, what did Survival enable again? We can push this even further with Mental Misstep.

Also lol @ "flash would be ok".

[MorphBerlin]

I agree with this, all else should be up for debate, including whether some cards get an unbanning.


One cards I'm curious about is Flash. Yes I realise it's power, yes I realise an un-ban is unlikely.

Because cheating in grieselbrand for 2U isn't allready good enough?

[Lemnear]

Because cheating in grieselbrand for 2U isn't allready good enough?

Griselbrand is the least Problem with flash. It can kill at instant speed for 1U. That's worlds apart from the 3-card combos of S&T + Omniscience + draw or dropping a Emrakul/Griselturd