All B/R update speculation.

[Finn]

I just think that getting tilted over T1 Chalice is warranted.

This reminds me of children. A kid can easily rile another kid with harsh words ("poopie head"). But those same words really have no power at all when directed at an adult or even an older child. In fact, if those words are spoken out of anger, it is entirely clear to their target how useless they are as a weapon.

Chalice of the Void is only worth the effort if your opponents are going to reliably play too many cantrips. If Chalice comes out on turn one, but you stepped up to the table with something that does not fold to it, the card and the silly deck that has been perverted from its most efficient form to power it out become rather lackluster and silly. It is a narrow card that punishes a format of inbred decks that all have the same features. They have been boinking their sisters for generations, and that shit ain't right.

You are enabling the card. Want to no longer get bent out of shape about Chalice?
Fuck someone else's sister.

[iatee]

Chalice is an easily beatable card, but the less that t1 Chalice affects you, the softer you are to decks that do lose to t1 Chalice - they play more mana-efficient magic than you do. A tier 1 Chalice deck creates a rock-paper-scissors meta where you get punished both for playing mana-efficient magic (via Chalice) and for not playing mana-efficient magic (via Wasteland/Thalia/Delver/Daze/Fast Combo).

Some people might prefer a rock-paper-scissors meta. If you're a below average player, you have more chances to beat good players because you brought rock and some of them brought scissors.

Chalice in a vacuum is not the most powerful legacy legal card, it probably isn't even in the top 10. But it creates the greatest number of 'non-games' and helps turn legacy into a format that isn't as rewarding to the stronger players, similar to modern.

[ahg113]

I got a bridge for sale if you're interested.

Is it a bridge, from below?

[ahg113]

Chalice is an easily beatable card, but the less that t1 Chalice affects you, the softer you are to decks that do lose to t1 Chalice - they play more mana-efficient magic than you do. A tier 1 Chalice deck creates a rock-paper-scissors meta where you get punished both for playing mana-efficient magic (via Chalice) and for not playing mana-efficient magic (via Wasteland/Thalia/Delver/Daze/Fast Combo).

Some people might prefer a rock-paper-scissors meta. If you're a below average player, you have more chances to beat good players because you brought rock and some of them brought scissors.

Chalice in a vacuum is not the most powerful legacy legal card, it probably isn't even in the top 10. But it creates the greatest number of 'non-games' and helps turn legacy into a format that isn't as rewarding to the stronger players, similar to modern.

What you said is opinion. Whether or not someone values that opinion, up to the consumer.

In regards to Rock-Paper-Scissors, I thought that's what Legacy was supposed to be. What happened to the control - aggro - combo dynamic? It's turned into 50-55% vs. the field. So pardon those who enjoy the r-p-s and find that attempting to win games one isn't favored in a good test of skill.

No matter your argument, it's reversible. Anyone complaining about Chalice, is like a Dega player complaining about Brainstorm, or a Dredge player complaining about grave hate, no sympathy.

[Ronald Deuce]

This reminds me of children.

My point was that you're free to get tilted about Brainstorm, too.

I can't imagine why (or how the only things weak to Chalice are cantrips), but it's up to you.

Universally punishing efficient cards is format-warping. Is that necessarily a problem? No; MUD's been doing it for ages, and Miracles has been for some time. Is it a problem when two decks drive a whole lot of other ones to the periphery? Yes.

Brainstorm doesn't do that. Force of Will doesn't do that. MUD doesn't do that. Thalia.dec doesn't do that. Does fast combo? To a point. Does graveyard hate? To a lesser extent.

I'm not upset about any of these, but it's pretty stupid to suggest that people are "enabling" Chalice players by not playing Impulse and Peer through Depths instead of Brainstorm and Ponder. Or by playing blue cards instead of white cards. I can only hope you know where your line of reasoning leads.

[Stevestamopz]

I think these last few pages may actually be the worst few pages in this thread's history. The same dude who has written >5 articles about how fun it is to cheese people out on turn 1 or 2 is complaining how non-interactive Chalice and Decay and Cavern of Souls are

If Maverick and Goblins and other such non-blue, non-dnt decks were still tier 1-1.5, Eldrazi would be a piece of shit. Even Jund would beat the shit out of that deck. But instead, we all opted to not ban Show and Tell, to deem Griselbrand fine and to keep Brainstorm around.

If you think every combo deck is fine and not overpowered but you find chalice obnoxious, I have some advice for you. Get in that bed you've made. Get nice and comfy and lie in it.

The only reason Chalice is good is because the format was never policed properly, the end.

[Dice_Box]

I have been playing Chalice for years. The third deck I built in Legacy was Dragon Stompy. 8 Sol lands, 4 Spirit guides, 3Ball, 8 Moons and of course Chalice. This shit has been happening for years and I am glad it's finally an effective deck.

I find it amusing that now people throw a tantrum about Chailce, only because hey, they might have to fucking think because Turbo Xerox might not be the best idea now. These are often the same people that tell me to "Adapt or play Modern" over Brainstorm. Irony.

I guess it's your turn to adapt. Or you could go play Modern. I know thats not helpful, but hey, it's your advice. Take it.

[Lemnear]

I think these last few pages may actually be the worst few pages in this thread's history. The same dude who has written >5 articles about how fun it is to cheese people out on turn 1 or 2 is complaining how non-interactive Chalice and Decay and Cavern of Souls are

Ok, you still don't WANT to adress the point made that you can battle storm with yardhate, counters, discard, hatebears, etc aka several angles to pick for several decks, while the only answers to CounterTop are Decay/Grip.

All I see that the discussion floats around Chalice in a vacuum, for no other reason that its easier to argue with deckbuilding restrictions the card requires, while sweeping Wasteland/Thorn under the rug, which are the reason you can't just run 2-3cc cards to battle chalice on a reliable base.

I am fine if you think that storm is highly uninteractive because of its ~8-10% T1 kills and that you have to run some cards out of the large selection of options to interact, but having Chalice/Counterbalance as the police.decs only results into more Emrakuls/Griselbrands as the response from Combo afficionados.

I hope the meta enjoys the "interactivity" and "adjustments" of casting S&T instead of Dark Ritual

[Stevestamopz]

Ok, you still don't WANT to adress the point made that you can battle storm with yardhate, counters, discard, hatebears, etc aka several angles to pick for several decks, while the only answers to CounterTop are Decay/Grip.

Which hatebear should I play in my R/G Goblins decklist to beat TES? ANT? even High Tide?
Also which is the best discard spell to use against the ape playing Past in Flames and lots of rituals? Still in my R/G deck
Which graveyard hate should I play against the deck that will likely just t2 Ad Nauseam me? Yep, we're still in my R/G deck.


I'm sure your answer will be "lol ur dekk sux, move on from 2006 lol look at this poor person who can't afford a new deck," which will then of course be applicable to your whining about chalice decks and counter-top. Can't beat em? Go buy a new legacy deck.

[Cartesian]

Which hatebear should I play in my R/G Goblins decklist to beat TES? ANT? even High Tide?

Eidolon of the Great Revel.

Also which is the best discard spell to use against the ape playing Past in Flames and lots of rituals? Still in my R/G deck

Discard is an almost exclusively black mechanic. You don't want discard, spend all your resources dealing damage.

Which graveyard hate should I play against the deck that will likely just t2 Ad Nauseam me? Yep, we're still in my R/G deck.

Tormod's Crypt, original and best. As for Ad Nauseam, your best answer to that is damage - e.g. Fireblast.

I just wanted to adress these three interesting questions. I am not really in this thread.

[Quasim0ff]

Eidolon of the Great Revel.


Discard is an almost exclusively black mechanic. You don't want discard, spend all your resources dealing damage.


Tormod's Crypt, original and best. As for Ad Nauseam, your best answer to that is damage - e.g. Fireblast.

I just wanted to adress these three interesting questions. I am not really in this thread.

These are all burn cards, besides the crypt.

[Stevestamopz]

Eidolon of the Great Revel.


Discard is an almost exclusively black mechanic. You don't want discard, spend all your resources dealing damage.


Tormod's Crypt, original and best. As for Ad Nauseam, your best answer to that is damage - e.g. Fireblast.

I just wanted to adress these three interesting questions. I am not really in this thread.

These... are not good. Chalice is just better than all of the above in Goblins.

[Lemnear]

This discussion has taken a twist for the stupid.

"Which kind of discard can I run in my RG deck?"

Pls

[Quasim0ff]

This discussion has taken a twist for the stupid.

"Which kind of discard can I run in my RG deck?"

Pls

That is not what he was arguing. He was arguing that decks have to evolve, and that being stuck in the past because that was the legacy you liked doesn't make sense; Counterbalance, Decay and chalice is present, so not acknowleding that and changing your deck to fight it is just a mistake.

[Lemnear]

That is not what he was arguing. He was arguing that decks have to evolve, and that being stuck in the past because that was the legacy you liked doesn't make sense; Counterbalance, Decay and chalice is present, so not acknowleding that and changing your deck to fight it is just a mistake.

Which is a fair point, but the result, according to GP Chiba, is the rise of S&T. In no way more interactive, fair or enjoyable than storm, but a result of the fact that the only ways to beat Chalice/Countertop is either sidestepping the lock or Abrupt Decay.

One may point me at how the metagame got more interactive and exciting with the development that one player is dropping Chalice @ 1 and the opponent follows up with a Griselbrands/Emrakul for the scoop

[Quasim0ff]

Which is a fair point, but the result, according to GP Chiba, is the rise of S&T. In no way more interactive, fair or enjoyable than storm, but a result of the fact that the only ways to beat Chalice/Countertop is either sidestepping the lock or Abrupt Decay.

One may point me at how the metagame got more interactive and exciting with the development that one player is dropping Chalice @ 1 and the opponent follows up with a Griselbrands/Emrakul for the scoop

You basically just want to be able to play Tendrils, because you have git probe and cabal therapy, and thus being highly interactive?

Storm as a deck is literally as uninteractive as SnS: One deck plays duress, the other plays force of will.

[Lemnear]

You basically just want to be able to play Tendrils, because you have git probe and cabal therapy, and thus being highly interactive?

Storm as a deck is literally as uninteractive as SnS: One deck plays duress, the other plays force of will.

You are delusional to think, I did not already switch decks and keep bashing my head against the wall with storm.

Its quite handy to have Chalice & Countertop push Delver and fast combo slowly out of the format if you play S&T.

P.S.: Good job not adressing my arguments, but going for my person instead using a strawmen claim.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Which is a fair point, but the result, according to GP Chiba, is the rise of S&T.

I was under the impression the Japanese just really loved them some Show and Tell. Kinda like how if you are a combo player in the Northeast US, you are probably playing Storm...

I just wanted to address that point. I am not really in this thread. (I never realized this was an option!)

[Quasim0ff]

I was under the impression the Japanese just really loved them some Show and Tell. Kinda like how if you are a combo player in the Northeast US, you are probably playing Storm...

I just wanted to address that point. I am not really in this thread. (I never realized this was an option!)

That is exactly why SnT was popular in Japan. It always is.

[Dice_Box]

I think the issue here is we are all looking for different things. I am a Prison enthusiast, so from my point of view Chailce is fine. What you seem to seek is an idealised format where there are no Prison elements and no one is seeking to shotgun their opponent. (Not seeking to put words in you mouth Lem, just the impression I get from your posts.) But there is not a format in existence that is like that. There will always be a group who shew interactive play for something like Combo or hard control.

Answers are often picked for their resistance to interaction. Grip is picked because of Split Second, Decay because of its inability to be counted, same for Cavern. If I want to kill a problematic permanent, I don't wish to let you decide if that permanent sticks around. As options increase, people will move to what works.

The thing is, it's not like we are talking about some massive shift in the way the format is played. For a very long time one of the top decks, Thresh, was made to remove the opponents choices and interactions. Stifle, Waste, Daze and Force used to keep the opposing player from doing anything of value.

And again, I do not see why we are bitching about it now. Chalice was printed more than a decade ago, Sol lands were around before then, Stompy was a deck long before Though-knot was spoiled and played to much the same plan.

To put it simply, I don't know what golden age of interaction your after. The age where Goblins Wasted and Ported you while ignoring everything else you did, the time Thresh was Wasting, Stifling and Dazing you out or the time Maverick was looping Wastelands and killing you with a 12/12? I don't see it. I guess at some point Iggy Pop did give you 4 cards back as they tried to kill you. Interactive.

Anyway. Not everyone enjoys playing with Force, Daze and Brainstorm. That means we are not going to seek massive stack fights and will find answers elsewhere. For some that's Thalia, for others its Wasteland or Gaddock. For me it's Loam and recurring Land destruction. But since I want a break from that right now it's switched to Smokestack and Chailce. You don't have to like that, you don't have to play that, but that's an option open to me and I will take it. You can call that non interactive play, I call it Legacy.