All B/R update speculation.

[btm10]

I'd infinitely prefer to play or play against High Tide than S&T, for what it's worth, pretty much regardless of what I play.

Seconded. At least the High Tide player is trying, and it's a budget-able deck (Candelabra is probably optimal, but from my conversations with proficient Hight Tide pilots, not having one isn't the end of the world).

Infect destroys Miracles and D&T, and is no cake walk for Lands either. Eldrazi is bad news for Infect. I honestly don't now much about Infect vs Shardless, but I have a hard time imagining it's really all that bad. Infect being fucked by the whole DTB section is flagrantly false.

Destroys Miracles is a stretch. It's favored, but the matchup isn't 70/30 in Infect's favor or anything. Shardless has a great Infect matchup, however. Unlike against normal combo decks, every card in Shardless has relevant text. In my experience playing the Shardless side, the Infect matchup is better than most Delver matchups.

[Chatto]

I'd infinitely prefer to play or play against High Tide than S&T, for what it's worth, pretty much regardless of what I play.

Meh. I'd rather die to a bullet to the head than sucumb to a fatal case of syphilis.

LOL...

[grimfield]

Infect destroys Miracles and D&T, and is no cake walk for Lands either. Eldrazi is bad news for Infect. I honestly don't now much about Infect vs Shardless, but I have a hard time imagining it's really all that bad. Infect being fucked by the whole DTB section is flagrantly false.

I'm not sure which deck(s) you generally play, but I find this comment to be off base. I'm also not sure why I decided to post in this terrible thread, but I have been drinking and feel compelled. Since the printing of become immense, I have probably played ~100 sanctioned matches with infect. Miracles is favorable, but only slightly -- it varies on build. Ponder/predict is the easiest, whereas legends builds are only slightly in infect's favor. Uncounterable venser, multiple flying blockers, izzet staticaster etc, make this matchup not as easy you believe.

Lands I actually find to be rather easy as infect. You can vines your thing precombat to beat maze, or run reality ripple like a champ and say sayonara to glacial chasm. Crop rotation into karakas buffers the solution further.

DnT is actually not as good as you believe. Sure, sometimes you win on turn 2 or 3 with elf and they have no permission and you are like . Generally I view this matchup as fairly even though. Infect runs one basic land. DnT has many blockers on the ground, runs 4 swords, and basically shuts off inkmoth nexus with 8 MD lands you can't interact with. Infect does not run very many lands or colored sources in total. Basically it's agent or bust if your hand isn't quick. Jitte is game, and due to the presence of chalice, it is no longer feasible to run 1 CMC answers such as nature's claim. Casting Kgrip can be a challenge, and DnT players will often bring in Canonist if they are intelligent.

TLDR; I don't feel like infect is very well positioned right now, and have been playing 4c delver or reanimator.

On topic: let's unban skullclamp because screw it, 1 cmc spells are unplayable due to CB/top and Chalice right? I want sweet value with my elemental tokens, and I'm sure my elf pilot friends would enjoy it. Also cheeri0s is now super enjoyable to pilot. SFM should be searching out broken stuff, not whammyskull5000.

[Lemnear]

Regarding Storm and AD, I'm willing to forget you said Infect runs Decay (you'll note I let you slide on that) if you'll forgive my slip-up.

Doesn't sound like me. May point me to that claim?

I think you are going the Donald Trump way of just flinging dirt at your conversation partners

Lanfs normally runs Grip and does just fine (AD builds are the exception).

Yeah, because it runs Chalice too

[Crimhead]

there's no way High Tide's coming back. Ignoring the fact that very few players will buy Candle, the deck is just bad. It struggles with CounterTop, and you can easily spend 3-4 turns setting up a perfect hand just to Spiral into something like 3 Islands, 2 pieces of countermagic, a High Tide and a Turnabout. Show and Tell into Griselbrand is a much better use of your time.

I was speaking of a Frantic Search unban, which would point to Reset builds.

[Speedbump]

I don't see a metagame where High Tide becomes viable, even with Frantic Search unbanned, outside of banning one of/both Chalice of the Void and Countertop. The deck just doesn't have the raw power to get there, unless your name is Feline Longmore.

Burn splashes green for Destructive Revelry.

Eh, usually not. Most Burn players either run [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card] effects, or run [card]Vexing Shusher[/card], as those cards combat the cards Burn is actually concerned about. ([card]Counterbalance[/card] locks in particular) Unless the metagame switches to 4 [card]Leyline of Sanctity[/card] in the sideboard, [card]Destructive Revelry[/card] isn't worth the slot in the metagame.

[Megadeus]

Eh,burn just gets under you and burns you and then finishes with a 6CMC spell or an uncountable exquisite fire craft to dodge counter balance. And they're in red so they can beat artifacts

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Then proceed to 1-2 drop because that's what burn does.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Eh, usually not. Most Burn players either run Red Elemental Blast effects, or run Vexing Shusher, as those cards combat the cards Burn is actually concerned about. (Counterbalance locks in particular) Unless the metagame switches to 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard, Destructive Revelry isn't worth the slot in the metagame.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21559&iddeck=165430
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21452&iddeck=164524
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21278&iddeck=162968
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21178&iddeck=162080

People definitely do, but it certainly isn't typical. That was mostly my point though, you splash to adjust to a meta where your deck has deficiencies.

[rlesko]

Infect destroys Miracles and D&T, and is no cake walk for Lands either. Eldrazi is bad news for Infect. I honestly don't now much about Infect vs Shardless, but I have a hard time imagining it's really all that bad. Infect being fucked by the whole DTB section is flagrantly false.

You've said a few things which are flagrantly false, but I feel the need to highlight infect vs D&T is unfavorable. Lands is also slightly unfavorable. The only way to really win both matches is to win on turn 2/3, but even that can be too slow if a thalia is resolved or punishing fire lock is found.

[iatee]

Infect is absolutely favored vs DnT. In Tom Ross' guide to Infect he calls it, 'a pretty easy matchup'.

It's winnable for DnT, not comparable to Elves, and sideboard Ethersworn Canonists help a lot. But I've played the matchup hundreds of times and there are some pretty obvious patterns. DnT is removal light, so there are very few ways to interact with Blighted Agents or a fast combo hand. Even when DnT has a StP, Infect just needs to set up a combo hand with protection. T1 Noble Hierarchs ramp Infect past a lot of the taxing effects.

[Dice_Box]

Playing Lands, if against Infect we are still playing after turn 3 I am winning that game. Unless they smack me fast I feel like the game is favoured. I have Ghost Quarter for their only basic, Wasteland for everything else, Tabernacle then caused hell and Punishing Fire forces them to cast shit on my terms. But, all of that said, a top deck buff can kill, and has more than once.

[Sidneyious]

So people here have a hate for

Cantrips
Counterspells
Prison effects
Taxes
Additional fees
"Free"
Hate/hoser
Free wins
Long games
Short games
Splashing
Interaction
Noninteraction
Cheating into play


No one answered my question.

If you hate a specific deck or set of cards what deck do you play?

[Dice_Box]

If you hate a specific deck or set of cards what deck do you play?

Simply? Whatever they own. The price of cards in Legacy these days means people are normal pressed into what they have. I have a very understanding wife, so I get more freedom than most, but I would be shocked if the majority of Legacy players had more that 2 substantially different decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm curious about what decks these "ban enablers dot Dec" play.

That wasn't rhetorical?

I'd imagine they play a deck that gets hosed by the particular enabler they are griping against.

If you hate a specific deck or set of cards what deck do you play?

Wouldn't you play a deck that has the highest probability of beating the offending deck or set of cards?

[Fox]

No one answered my question.

If you hate a specific deck or set of cards what deck do you play?

If you want to contribute in a meaningful way to pan-topics like B/R, yours is a question that won't be answered. When you read into someone's analysis and infer what deck they are on [i.e. advocating for] should be all the information you need. It's more a question of whether or not the metrics of their analysis has successfully divorced themselves from a biased starting point.

We're generally discussing potential bans which shape the current meta-game, how then is it useful to potentially ascribe higher value to posts of the current tier 1 perspective (which is potentially only tier one directly or indirectly due to a card being discussed)?

[Stevestamopz]

I want brainstorm and show and tell banned. I play 4c Delver and DnT. They both have exceptional Sneak and Show matchups. You can get off your high horse now.

[Sidneyious]

Simply? Whatever they own. The price of cards in Legacy these days means people are normal pressed into what they have. I have a very understanding wife, so I get more freedom than most, but I would be shocked if the majority of Legacy players had more that 2 substantially different decks.

I'm using simply what I own and I'm not complaining.

That wasn't rhetorical?

I'd imagine they play a deck that gets hosed by the particular enabler they are griping against.


Wouldn't you play a deck that has the highest probability of beating the offending deck or set of cards?

No, and if we all wanted to think you you say "highest chance" then we would all be on 5 decks.

I could sell 2 decks and build miracles or storm but I don't want to play thoes decks.

Yes I lose but I also win, I'm not complaining about any one particular card, I'm complaining about how some here are complaining.

If you want to contribute in a meaningful way to pan-topics like B/R, yours is a question that won't be answered. When you read into someone's analysis and infer what deck they are on [i.e. advocating for] should be all the information you need. It's more a question of whether or not the metrics of their analysis has successfully divorced themselves from a biased starting point.

We're generally discussing potential bans which shape the current meta-game, how then is it useful to potentially ascribe higher value to posts of the current tier 1 perspective (which is potentially only tier one directly or indirectly due to a card being discussed)?

So far all I see is complaining and no I don't see what deck they are on.

I am trying to contribute in a meaningful way, I'm not crying about cards, or weather or not this or that is interactive.

I want brainstorm and show and tell banned. I play 4c Delver and DnT. They both have exceptional Sneak and Show matchups. You can get off your high horse now.

I don't have a horse and thank you for actually contributing to.my question.

---------

I ask because I don't know everyone's decks, pet decks, or what they are trying to accomplish in legacy.

Legacy was defined because it was cheaper than t1.
Now we approach t1 levels is bonkers we have people complaining more about this and that than price.

I actually don't see any factual information as to why 30 of the pillars of legacy should be banned in anyway other than you don't like it.

That's what I see when I read most of this topic, if we were going to ban cards based on popularity and performance then land should be the first to go.

These cards are inherent and have been around for years and now people just start wanting to p&m about these cards?

Don't give me any jive like "but this card broke it", that's hogwash and you know it.

Now we are going to have someone say "strawman attempt" instead of actually talk to me like a decent human being.

If you think I'm on a horse then the way you talk to me or each other for that matter you all have many horses to be sitting on.

This site is supposed to be the pillar of mtg information, I don't see any actual information in this topic.

Your friendly neighborhood observer.

[rlesko]

Infect is absolutely favored vs DnT. In Tom Ross' guide to Infect he calls it, 'a pretty easy matchup'.

It's winnable for DnT, not comparable to Elves, and sideboard Ethersworn Canonists help a lot. But I've played the matchup hundreds of times and there are some pretty obvious patterns. DnT is removal light, so there are very few ways to interact with Blighted Agents or a fast combo hand. Even when DnT has a StP, Infect just needs to set up a combo hand with protection. T1 Noble Hierarchs ramp Infect past a lot of the taxing effects.

Did you completely neglect to mention umezawa's jitte? yes you identified the problem card in blighted agent but inkmorh and glistener are easily dealt with. The number of times you have a turn 2 kill on the play is extremely low...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Now we are going to have someone say "strawman attempt" instead of actually talk to me like a decent human being.

Sharing just because you might find it interesting: http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng20..._fallacies.htm

Strawman is listed towards the bottom. When people say that it isn't (typically) to dismiss the opposition without actually responding, it would be because the opposition isn't honoring the gentleman's agreement of debate (that you argue logically).

This site is supposed to be the pillar of mtg information, I don't see any actual information in this topic.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of this thread. It's a contained garbage fire, not a place to have any kind of meaningful discussion.