[Deck] Goblins

[Ace/Homebrew]

I would imagine FoW would be awkward to play in a non-blue deck just as ScatmanX described it.

That sounds like counter productive.

Get it? =)

You're pitching a counter to play a counter. And FoW is almost unplayable if you have to hard cast it. A mid/late game top-deck and you'd be wanting anything else.
If you have to splash blue I think GoboLords list looks good but I'd replace the Fire//Ice with Brainstorm. Or as mentioned above, put FoW in the sideboard and break it out against the matches you need it turn 0. Brainstorm seems good... especially in a build with fetchlands.
ScatmanX spoke well of it in post 538 even as he was taking it out to test MM.

If you want to up the blue count without diluting goblins, how about Goblin Flectomancer?

And isn't Stifle a valid card against most decks? Couldn't this be main?

[Vandalize]

Are you having sucess with those blue splashs? For me it's just a bad testing for "new fashioned" cards. I don't like Mental Misstep for this deck, and the "splash" you're forcing to make it more viable. Goblins is a very tight decklist with a straight strategy (most of time). I don't think those decklists are superior to mono-red and black-splash in any kind of way.

[FoxBlade]

I'd almost rather run spell snare over daze and have FOW for everything else.

I think I'll try building a deck and testing it out later...

[Ace/Homebrew]

I agree with Vandalize. Blue the way it's being described seems like such a color commitment just to make FoW viable...

Look at Rb and Rg decklists. The splash adds *maybe* 4 off color cards to the main deck (usually just 2 Warren Wierding for black and none for green). Splash in Goblins is usually just to open our sideboard hate up to stronger or more fitting cards.

I'm also being influenced here by my lack of desire to purchase a playset of FoW since I still need 2 Wastelands...

But if I were doing Ru I'd probably use my 12 flex spots for:
4 Brainstorm *or* 4 Stifle
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Flectomancer (hey, why not... otherwise he's a Stingscourger)
3 Standstill

I'd keep MM in my sideboard.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

yesterday i tested for about 2 hours whith th second list i posted:

//Lands [22]
4 Waste
3 Rishadan port
9 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stinger

//SB
needs work


Although i dont like the idea of running U i find this list very strong.
First of all: Daze and MM are for free, thus it doesn't distrub your aggro plan
Daze + 7 manadenial is very effective!
And: The surprise factor is huge. Sometimes You don't need U until the lategame. With 9 fetches your opp will almost never see a counterspell coming. Plus: WHen your opp knows that we run Daze he keeps playing around it, even it isn't in your hand. Thats a huge advantage too!

So overall: I'd advice every one to test this configuration! Although the SB needs to be worked on.

[ScatmanX]

Something to keep in mind is that, if you mantain the Core, even if you put something like 4 Gempalm, 8 Islands on the 12 flex slots, the deck will continue to be good. So What we need to discover is if the deck is winning because of MM and Daze, or in spite of them.

Just to disagree with GoboLord once, I do not like Daze in goblins. Maybe in the SB of the list I suggested last page, it could work, but I did not liked it in my testing.
MM and Brainstorm, on the other hand, were great. Brainstorm work great with Fetchs and Matron and Ringleader. On thing that happened a LOT on testing was: Brainstorm in my turn, draw 2 lands and a goblin, put 2 goblins back on top, Vial Ringleader and get 3-4 goblins. This is a killer.

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

[jrw1985]

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

You make a good point here. I think that no matter what new cards come along or how the meta shifts, Goblins as a deck is still powered by t1 Lackey or Vial. Playing cards that don't allow you to play your 1-drop probably don't help you win games.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys Im sorry but I dont think blue splash is the way to go. . . . Whats all the buzz about MM I dont think it would greatly affect our deck, so whats the deal if they counter our vial or lackey first turn, 2nd, 3rd . . . .? We have 4 copies of each and MM does only have 4 Counter our lackey its ok.... we have our back up the more threatening warren instigators.. In a battle againts control (if MM would greatly affect the meta) decks we have said and discussed that WI is the way to go plus sideboard wise we have pyroblast and REB. Well just my opinion guys...

[bakofried]

I think you all need to get off the fucking hype train. Them killing our dudes is natural; we have more CA, so while they're 1-for-1ing, you can follow up with Ringleader, Matron, Gempalm and SGC. You weaken the CA of the deck by throwing in so many non-Goblins, and I don't think it's worth it.

[GoboLord]

I think you all need to get off the fucking hype train. Them killing our dudes is natural; we have more CA, so while they're 1-for-1ing, you can follow up with Ringleader, Matron, Gempalm and SGC. You weaken the CA of the deck by throwing in so many non-Goblins, and I don't think it's worth it.

We are not even riding on the fucking hype train.
I think it's reasonable to run countermagic that doesn't disrupt our gameplan (aka. Daze and MM).
With 8 non-Goblin cards in MDour deck is far away from being dilluted and our CA engine isn't touched significantly.
Plus: I think the most important reason to run countermagic is NOT that it protects our dudes (which it CAN do, but running more dudes is more efficient here) but that it makes it easier to fight combo (which is on a rise right now).
It's not that we are trying to design 'Next Level Goblins' or something like that. What we are working on is improving bad MU ( a neverending quest for every deck) in part by designing new variants. And IMO Mental Misstep is worth testing.

[bakofried]

Even then, I fail to see how this will significantly alter our win percentages against combo. High Tide and Storm can play around decks packing a dedicated counter suite. You run 8 counters - none of which touch their bombs if you're careful. And Misstepping a Ritual kind of blows. You essentially add another 2 to their storm count. You *may* hurt dredge by hitting a discard outlet, but as a dredge pilot, I can assure you it's in no way crippling. Honestly, Storm Pilots play through far more disruption than what you're adding, so why do you think this will be successful?

As a side note, Daze is free in a deck with a low manacurve, not in one as manaheavy as this.

[GoboLord]

How paranoid must that storm-combo-player be to play around countermagic ins GOBLINs?
The logic is as follows: We have a good chance on winning against combo even with our regular 4-8 combo-hate slots in SB. So 8 additional cards that disrupt them can't be bad. I must admit that MM and Daze will not break their necks, but I when we do the math:

8 Disruption (MD) + 4 Hatecards (SB) > 0 Disruption (MD) + 4 Hatecards (SB)

The good thing about Daze is: You don't need to counter in early turns. Later in game when you have done some damage with manadenial and you got a Rishadan Port online Daze can still hit creatures with highmanacosts (e.g. many decks dont have mana left after casting Tombstalker or KotR).

[bakofried]

The "surprise factor" argument is bullshit. That doesn't lead to an optimal decklist, it means we *may* get a few wins until your local Storm Pilot wises up. To be honest, it shouldn't take longer than the first game. And yes, Daze loses a lot of its value late in the game. That is very well accepted, and I don't know how you can argue around that. And yes, 8 cards that disrupt them but dick with our tribal synergy can most certainly be called bad.

[GoboLord]

The "surprise factor" argument is bullshit.

Bullshit which you obviously dont have any arguments against...

That doesn't lead to an optimal decklist,

It's not that we are trying to design 'Next Level Goblins' or something like that.

And yes, Daze loses a lot of its value late in the game. That is very well accepted, and I don't know how you can argue around that.

If you don't know how I can agrue around that you should read my last post again:

Later in game when you have done some damage with manadenial and you got a Rishadan Port online Daze can still hit creatures with highmanacosts (e.g. many decks dont have mana left after casting Tombstalker or KotR).

I didn't even say that Daze does NOT lose strength in lategame (same goes for Lackey and Vial, still we are running both of them. So it's not a very good argument here to begin with). WHat I pointed out is that really NO deck has ever before combined Dazes with 7-8 Manadenial (aka. Wastelands AND Rishadan Ports). That's something you can't predict from what is "well accepted".,



Seriously: This discussion is about TESTING new cards not CREATING a new deck. Unless there are critical conceptual mistakes in the deck (or the idea) we are testing (like running a singleton FoR in an otherwise MonoR deck) there can't be any reason against testing. We don't know what impact the card (MM) has on the meta. We don't know to what degree it does or does not disturb any deck (theories and predictions won't get us anywhere). You didn't even TEST this configuration yourself. So please tell me why you think your complains about those lists we suggested can help us with testing.

//EDIT: I'm sorry if I sound harsh - I don't want to offend you. Its just that I absolutely can't stand if an argumentation lacks proofs, examples, explanation and logic.

[Ace/Homebrew]

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

Good point. Makes a lot of sense.
I have NOT built the Ru list to test it because I am 4 Volcanic Islands short and they seem pretty important in that splash

As a general rule, I agree with Bakofried. Taking goblins out of Goblins is not a good idea and needs to be done with careful consideration. However the meta is filled with combo and that's not good for our little green dudes.

GoboLord and ScatmanX and anyone else testing U splash. You've mentioned your likes and dislikes of the flex cards but I'd really be interested in hearing what decks your opponents were using, and whether your match up was improved/the same/worse than more traditional goblins. Mostly interested in how your ANT/TES/High Tide game has changed.
I am still very new to Legacy and have admittedly been more wrong than right regarding my statements on his forum but I believe the shift towards a Combo-heavy meta is not a lasting one. Survival's banning affected a lot and the top decks are still fighting for dominance. BUT our match up against combo sucks and I'd love to know we can build a deck that improves our match up to 50/50 or so without sacrificing our already positive match ups (just like we can build a deck that improves our Zoo game).

I don't know that blue splash is the answer Goblins needs to beat combo, but it's worth exploring.
As a side note, I like the blue splash more and more the less blue cards are being run main deck. The Brainstorm tricks using Ringleader and a fetch-land heavy manabase sound like a great way to set yourself up to break your opponents back. I really don't like running counter-magic in goblins and is the reason I chose goblins over fish. However I am quick to adopt a strategy that is proven to work...

[bakofried]

You ignored my follow-up statement. The "surprise factor" will work a finite number of times, depending on the size of your local community and the tournament scene there, as well as the playskill of the opponent. If he sees blue game 1, then he (or she) will be on guard for Force, Daze, Spell Pierce, and certainly Mental Misstep (with all the hype floating around) in game 2. If this becomes a common convention in Goblins, then eventually that information will be disseminated to most of the Legacy community, diminishing the value of the "surprise factor" - and when most of the value of the strategy comes from that factor, you have a strategy that will quickly become defunct.

And yes, early merfolk builds used Rishadan Port as well as Wasteland. This was in conjunction with Daze, Force, and Stifle.

Also, I never claimed you were creating a new deck. I'm just stating my opinion that the blue splash is terrible, and Mental Misstep changes this in such a marginal way that it shouldn't be considered.

[Humphrey]

i dont like running 12 non gobo cards and splashing blue. but i think mm in a monor build can be very effective. less dmg to fetches and no problems with wastes stifle and shit.

im going to try

lands 22
14 mountain
4 waste
4 port

core 26

flex 12
4 mm
2 instigator or mwm
2 chieftain
2 incinerator
2 stingscourger

sb
4 mindbreak t
4 pyrokinesis
2 tormods
2 relique of p
3 shatterstorm

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I don't think dazing is really desirable in goblins, especially when on the draw. You will need your land drops to developp your own tempo.
Merfolk and all it's lords are better suited for control cards because they do not rely on tempo as much as goblins do. So if you try to follow such deck plan, I'd suggest going for merfolk as creature base instead.

i dont like running 12 non gobo cards and splashing blue. but i think mm in a monor build can be very effective. less dmg to fetches and no problems with wastes stifle and shit.

im going to try

lands 22
14 mountain
4 waste
4 port

core 26

flex 12
4 mm
2 instigator or mwm
2 chieftain
2 incinerator
2 stingscourger

sb
4 mindbreak t
4 pyrokinesis
2 tormods
2 relique of p
3 shatterstorm

I'd try -1 chieftain, +1 instigator (3 total), -4 port, +2 chrome mox, +2 mountain.
Relic of progenitus is not my favourite gy card. I prefer to play crypt+lackey/vial on turn 1, relic can be too slow (and it costs an extra mana to empty the gy). Especially since relic can be hit by MM. If you want a split fairie macabre is a good alternative.

[Humphrey]

hm i dont see why chromemox should be better than port now, plague and spout are still played. maybe 2 ports 2 moxen?
in the testing after instigator was printed ive found him a little bit unimpressive, 3 is to much for my taste, id like to put better things into play than more lackeys

[Vandalize]

How the hell Mental Misstep and Daze hurt Combo? At least T.E.S/A.N.T, they'll be very pleased if you add 2 storm counts for them (1 for MM cast, and 1 for -2 life).

They often duress/chant before going off against any deck (if they can't hit anything, they've just added a storm count) and MM and Daze will almost never hit their key cards (LED, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam).

I'm not harassing that blue splash, I just think that adding Daze/MM *might* improve our combo MU, while weakening other good matchups (like countertop, for example).