[Deck] Goblins

[liamb]

Did you have any creatures in play? If so, I guess you should've had Jace resolve since S&T into Omniscience is a bigger threat.

If he hadn't put his Jace in the graveyard immediately then it might not be wrong to counter it. It could just as well his only threat.

I had no creatures. My hand was rather slow therefore i had this thought to muligan this hand and in general - muligan more aggresively. Still - two hate cards was kinda ok.

[Nelis]

Its hard because he put his jace in his graveyard immediately which is a tell. I think in this case you should not have countered his Jace and hope for a lucky ringleader draw to deal with his Jace.

Otherwise I think you should have countered Jace. Like I said, it could have been his only threat.

[Mindlash]

2 days ago I have attended small, 4-rounds tournament. Played simillar do Jim Davis' list with fallowing changes:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Fetch
-1 Mountain
-1 Siege-Gang Commander

+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Karakas
+1 Plateau
+1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Sb: Was -2 Angel of Despair (I only have one)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Stingscourger

Won 2-1 against Nic-fit (thank you Krenko)
1-1 draw against Bant due time limit (game 2 took us quite long – I had 930 (again thank you Krenko) goblins and my opponent behind Dueling Grounds and me shooting him dead with Siege-Gang Commander).
I won 2-1 against some kind of tempo/rock BUG deck with delvers, oozes, bobs, goyfs and so on.
Won 2-1 against RUG tempo *****.

After 4 rounds I was first (I was the only player with 10 points) but one lad from top4 wanted to play additional round for prize split. Unfortunately I lost 2-1 against Omniscience. Still It was kind of funny to see some surprised faces when the audience looked at bald angel among other goblins. The last game I lost due my play error – I was on the draw and kept my 7 with 2 lands, Red Elemental Blast, Stingscourger. My opponent was sculpting his hand and played t3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He predicted I had REB in hand because I always try to save 1 untaped mountain. When he played Jace he immediately wanted to put it into his graveyard just to provoke my red counterspell. Stupid me - I fell into his trap. Next turn he played S&T into omniscience. Anyway – what you would do? Let the Jace resolve? Muligan this hand?

An alternative to Angel might be Confusion in the Ranks if you have just one Angel. CitR is much cheaper and will bring you as much "rofl's" from bystanders as Angel would. I am not a big fan of Stingscourgers and have only one of them in my 75, though I am unsure if 3 Confusions are enough...but 4 seem a bit much since you only use them in this one matchup (you still have the option die hardcast them in other matchups but why would you?). You should definatly give it a try. Once you SnT Confusion into play your next turn will be awesome with all those Matrons/Ringleaders and Omniscience on your side ;-)

Greetings Mindlash

[Ace/Homebrew]

@ Ace//Homebrew:
Thank you for the report.
I wonder why you sided out Piledriver against Zombardement. I see the MU as follows: when 70% of their creatures either can't block or should not be used to block (Blood Artist) I think our best plan would be to outrace them. Could you tell us what was behind your boarding plans?

There were actually 3 different zombie decks there, all with slightly different takes on the build. The one I played against played Badlands, Scrubland, and bayou. The creatures I saw were Tidehollow Sculler, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Deathrite Shaman, and Carrion Feeder with Goblin Bombardment, Lingering Souls, and Zealous Persecution as non-creature cards.

I believe the Shaman and Persecution were in from the board. My game one loss was due to Goblin Bombardment. I knew I wanted Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus in game 2. I left 1 Driver in just in case a situation arose where one would end the game but due to a lack of across the table I guessed it was bad in the matchup.

[ScatmanX]

An alternative to Angel might be Confusion in the Ranks if you have just one Angel. CitR is much cheaper and will bring you as much "rofl's" from bystanders as Angel would. I am not a big fan of Stingscourgers and have only one of them in my 75, though I am unsure if 3 Confusions are enough...but 4 seem a bit much since you only use them in this one matchup (you still have the option die hardcast them in other matchups but why would you?). You should definatly give it a try. Once you SnT Confusion into play your next turn will be awesome with all those Matrons/Ringleaders and Omniscience on your side ;-)

Greetings Mindlash

Tested 25 games this weekend against Omnitell, with 2 Pyroclasms and 3 Stifles on the board.
On the Draw I had 6 losses and 6 wins. All wins were due to having Confusions of the Ranks on my opener, and won trough either Omni/Emrakul/Grizzle. All losses I didn't have the enchantment. 3 games Angel of Dispair insted of Confusion would lead into a loss.
On the play, won 9 games, lost 4. 6 Wins I had Confusion of the Ranks, that won the game, 2 Chalice of The Void won the game, and the last one I had Vial +2 Ports + Wasteland, and it was enough. The 4 I lost I did not see confusion.
There was a total of 7 games were I saw Chalice of the Void, but it was useless (worse then useless sometimes, because playing it meant not using Port).
0 Games were won by bouncing Emrakul/Grizzle with Stingscourger (I found this interesting).

The list I played was a lot like Jim Davis, couple of changes MD, and the SB was: 3 Kinesis, 1 Tuktuk, 3 Relic, 2 Surgical (not brought in), 3 Confusion in the Ranks, 3 Chalice of the Void.
Hope this helps anyone.


@orcanmail: Fireblast is bad in goblins. The deck you mentioned is probably Shelldrazi, and is cheating Dragonform into play somehow (Show and Tell or Sheldock Isle). You have answers against those, so my advice would be to focus them.
Trini is quite expensive. Haven't tested, but sounds bad. If you test it, let us know.

@Ace/Homebrew: Against Zombies I'd straight swap the 3 Vials you left in for some Kinesis. It usually kills 2-3 creatures, stopping the bleed. Also, Piledrivers should stay in. I'd favor them higher than MWM. Maybe a split between them.

[GoboLord]

@ Scatman:
Thanks for sharing your testing results, I'm sure we all profit from that. So, what I can read from your testing results is this: if someone wants to dedicate SB space to S&T.dec he/she will be better of with Confusion in the ranks than Angel of Despair.

@ Ace:
I agree with Scatman, my intention would also be to side out Vials rather than Piledriver. You should be able to win very fast against this deck, as they don't put down to many blockers in their early turns.

[Sasan]

@Scatman: Can you specify why Angel did not win you games? Would you have won the 6 games on the Play with Angel, too? is Confusion to your opinion better? did you feel more comfortable with it? :-)

[ScatmanX]

@Scatman: Can you specify why Angel did not win you games? Would you have won the 6 games on the Play with Angel, too? is Confusion to your opinion better? did you feel more comfortable with it? :-)

I'm not home right now, and left my notes there. From where I remember all except once, that Angel failed was because of Stifle, while the other one he simply SnT next turn again. So, I guess that, if you want to be prepared against Stifle, Confusion is better.

[Sasan]

so after you played confusion in the ranks in response to show and tell, the omni tell player can still stifle the ability of Confusion with stifle..ok but only one time. the other turn you only play a creature and exchange controls. Do I understand right?

[ScatmanX]

so after you played confusion in the ranks in response to show and tell, the omni tell player can still stifle the ability of Confusion with stifle..ok but only one time. the other turn you only play a creature and exchange controls. Do I understand right?

If he drops Omniscience from SnT, then Counfusion will trigger twice. Once the 1st one resolve, the snd one fizzle due to ack of legal targets. If he Stifles one trigger, then the other one resolves, and you get Omnitell. He needs 2 Stifles to keep Omniscience. (and both enchatments come into the battlefiels troguh SnT, not "in response" of anything).
If he drops Emrakul or Grizzlebrand, and you drop Confusion in the Ranks, you can Vial in any goblin, or cast any goblin in your turn, to steal his guy, and then just profit from it. He can Stifle the trigger for 1 goblin, but normally you have more than 1 to play/Vial, or the 1 you have is Mogg Warmarchall, that dodges Stifle by himself.

[Sasan]

thanks scatman ;) I did not mean the phrase "in response to" literally. I know that all permanents come into play the same time with stifle. Confusion seems better for goblins than Angel as we always have at least one creature
to bring into play.

[LeoCop 90]

Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum and the first thing i want to do is to apologize for my probably bad English...I'm from Italy and i will surely do a lot of mistakes.
I started playing magic when i was thirteen with the sets Legions and Onslaught... my older brother also played magic a lot of years ago and he played...Goblins.So it looked like i started my magic experience with the right sets. I played for 2-3 years doing some very small tournaments and doing well; i once won a box of Fifth Dawn (one of the worst sets ever done).
Some months ago a new magic shop opened in my town and I decided to restart playing (I'm now 22). I also collect goblins and i have every goblin ever printed except for the ones from starter, portal and portal second age wich i want to find as soon as possible.
I also want to thank everyone who write in this thread because you helped me to understand how I should play a goblin deck today and wich cards should I use.
But is now the time to start writing the real reason of my post. I did a tournament with about 45 people in my town yesterday, and this was my list.
Main deck:
Creatures(34):
-4 Goblin Lackey
-4 Goblin Piledriver
-4 Goblin Warchief
-4 Goblin Matron
-4 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Mogg War Marshal
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Stingscourger
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Goblin Chieftain
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-1 Siege Gang Commander
Artifacts(4):
- 4 Aether Vial
Lands(22):
- 4 Wasteland
- 3 Rishadan Port
- 4 Cavern of Souls
- 4 Bloodstained Mire
- 7 Mountains.

Side Deck:
Artifacts(5):
- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Serum Powder
Enchantments(6):
- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 2 Confusion in the Ranks
Creatures(4):
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 2 Angel of Despair

I think there is not a lot to explain about my choices in main deck. I would have splashed green for Tin Street Hooligan but I can't afford Taiga.I played 4 fetches because although you suggest non to play them in mono red lists, I still think it can be useful to eliminate lands from the deck and avoid dead draws, especially in long games.I'm not afraid of losing 2-3 life points, except against burn. But against burn is always a short match so I shouldn't draw more than 1 fetch.I was undecided about playing Mogg Fanatic or Tarfire, and I finally chose the mogg because he is a creature,can pump Piledriver, can be played through Cavern, can block and prevent Jitte and Batterskull to charge, can be useful against dredge. The big problem is that he dont kills Stoneforge Mystic and Delver, but I anyway chose him.
In the side i decided to focus against the unfair matchups. So i played angels and confusion against Show and tell, Leyline as grave-hate and Chalices mainly against combo,but they can always be useful. I experimented 2 Serum Powder wich increases a lot the probability to draw your hate cards, the only problem is that putting them in the deck means that you have to side in 6 cards instead of 4.

Turn one: Reanimator
Game one: I was on the draw and he puts a second turn Griselbrand on the battlefield. I don't have Stingscourger and I lose.
Game two: (-1 Tinkerer, -3 Gempalm, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Chieftain, -1 Fanatic. + 4 Leyline,+2 Serum Powder,+ 2 Stingscourger). I have serum Powder in my opening hand, I discard and draw seven cards in wich I find two Leylines. I win.
Game three: I have a Leyline in my opening hand. I win. I later discovered that he sided in Echoing Truth. Fortunately he didn't draw it or I would have probably lost.
1-0.

Turn two: U/W miracle control.
Game one: I was on the play and started with a Fanatic. I beat him down to 14-15 before he found a Terminus. I won in a few turns thanks to ringleaders and ports wich tapped his white mana.
Game two.(-1 Sharpshooter, -1 Fanatic, +1 Tinkerer for the divining top, +1 stinscourger because he can kill an angel token.) This was a really long match. I would have won when i cast a lot of goblins + chieftain but he drew a card with Sensei's divining top and found a Terminus wich he had not prepared with the top. he never cast an Entreat the angels and time finished so i won 1-0. Port have been fantastic also in this match.
2-0

Turn 3: U/W miracle control again.
Game one: I was on the play and started with cavern lackey. I won in 3-4 turns.
Geme two: ( same cards in and out as the previous match). After casting a terminus he plays Humility. I found this card quite a nonsense in his deck because he then did 3-4 angel tokens 1/1. I won after a very long match by beating with my 1/1 goblins. He said that he was waiting to draw one of the three Jace in his deck, and that he played only two Entreat the Angels.
3-0

Turn 4: Show and Tell.
Game one: I was on the draw, I started with Cavern + Lackey , then destroyed one of his lands with wasteland and kept an ancient tomb tapped with Port. Unfortunately he played another tomb and a Lothus Pethal, cast Omniscience through Show and Tell ( I had only a matron to put down),cast Burning Wish for Petals of Insight and won.
Game two: (- 3 Gempalm, -1 Tinkerer, -1 Sharpshooter, - 1 Chieftain, - 1 Piledriver. + 2 Angel of Despair , +2 Confusion in the Ranks, +2 Serum Powder, +1 Stingscourger). I mulled to one but never managed to get Angel or confusion. I lost and he won playing Emrakul. I should have kept my second hand where i had stingscourger, but i was scared by omniscience.
3-1

Turn 5 : Maverick.
Game one: I don't remember much of this game, I think I was on the play and i won.
Game two: (+1 tinkerer, -1 piledriver). He tooks a Jitte with the Mystic. I manage for a few turn to keep that uncharged by finding a Prospector with Matron, but when he plowshares the prospector the game ends. If I had some removals i could have won.
Game three: I kept an hand without Lackey and Vial but with Matron ringleader and tinkerer, so i started only playing a mountain. It Was a very long match because after 3- 4 turns he had 4 Mother of Runes in Play. He didn't play other creatures for a lot of time and when he cast 2 knights of the reliquary it was too late because I had an horde of goblins made by only one activation of an haste krenko that got immediately plowshared. I won in one of the last turns remained shooting damage in his face with siege-gang.
4-1

Turn 6: BUG. This was the last turn and we decided not to draw the match because they were sure to go in top 8.
4-1-1. I couldn't believe it but I went top 8 !

Top 8 : random G/W/B/R deck. I don't know if this deck has a name, i only know he played 4 colors for the cards I saw.
Game one: I was on the play because of better position in the ranking. I started with a lackey and he played a 2/2 Wild Nacatl. Then i wasted his land and he blocked my lackey with his 1/1 wild nacatl both died and i played Vial. He played another land but did nothing, I played a port and kept his land tapped. He didn't draw any other land so I won casting goblins through vial while he did nothing except playing an instant plowshare in response to port.
Game two: I was undecided about siding or not chalices, but I decided to put in only a stingscourger to replace a tinkerer. This match was a bit longer than the other because he had a lot of removals( plowshares, maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay). He didn't play any big creature but only a Deathrite Shaman, a Noble Hierarch, a Dark Confidant and a Grim Lavamancer. Fortunately i manage to slaughter all of his creatures except for the Shaman with an haste Sharpshooter this way : I cast sharpshooter, he kills my warchief in response, but I have also a prospector in play so I sacrifice all my goblins except Sharpshooter to play a Chieftain giving haste and killing his creature. If i didn't do it it would have been more difficult to win because he could start to kill my creatures with the lavamancer.

Top 4 : Belcher
Game one. I was on the draw because of his better ranking and he did 16 1/1 goblins turn one with Empty the Warrens.
Game two. (- 3 Gempalm, -1 Tinkerer, - 1 Stingscourger. +2 Serum Powder, + 3 Chalice of the Void) . I had serum powder in hand, i discarded and draw two chalices and played a chalice at 0. He still manages to do a lot of tokens after 2-3 turns but i kill them with sharpshooter, play the chalice at 1 and win.
Game three: I waited a bit to know if he kept the hand or mull. He kept the hand so I thought it was absolutely necessary to find the Chalices to have a chance. I mulled to three but found nothing. Then he didn't manage to cast empty the warrens or charbelcher and he did a lot of tokens only on turn 5-6. I don't know why he kept the hand but if I also kept mine i would have won. Damn !!

So I ended the tournament winning three fetchlands of my choice. I chose three Wooded Foothills ( one signed). The final match was Charbelcher vs Ant ( I had really no chance to win the tournament anyway) . I think they decided to split the prize wich was 4 Force of will for the first and 4 Polluted Delta for the second, but I'm not sure because I went away.

Last thing to say is that it was not an official tournament and 10 proxies were admitted: I proxied ports and wastelands wich I don't have and it is one of the first times I play with these cards. So I am very surprised I managed to get to top 4, also because other people were a lot more experienced than me. I really felt that Goblins is a very solid deck and I am very very happy. Sorry again for my English, I hope you'll enjoy reading this post.

[ScatmanX]

report

Welcome to The Source man. And congrats on your finish.
Very nice report you wrote. Thanks. Keep em coming.

Have a question regarding Serum Powder: Have you playtested with it more? It looks like it helped you win 2 games. In your testing was it good?
Also, you don't have any kind of creature hate on your SB. Why is that?

EDIT: WOW! Just realized while PMing Sassan that Confusion in the Ranks is an ok SB card against Enchantress and RiP combo deck too! Stealing their Solitary Confinement or Elephant Grass from on, or Energy Field from the other, might be enough to win you the game in one turn. It would be so awesome if that happened once.

[LeoCop 90]

I playtested the list a bit the days before the tournament, and Serum Powder helped me win some matches. In the tournament i surely won the second game against Reanimator and Belcher thanks to Serum Powder; as i wrote before it increases a lot the probability to find your hate cards in game 2 and 3. Sometimes however i mulled very good hands without hate cards because i believed to find the hate having also serum powder in the deck.... and this made me lose the second game against Show and Tell and the third against Belcher. so if you have Serum Powder you can mull aggressively to find your hate, but if you have a very good hand, then KEEP IT.
You also asked why I don't have cards against aggro decks. I simply decided to focus against the unfair matchups, and i chose serum powder to focus MORE against these matchups. If i sided cards against aggro i should have surely cut serum powder and something else.... and i didn't do it because i think that goblins is the best aggro; only zoo can give us hard times, and zoo is not played now. The mirror match could have given me problems,but i was the only goblin player in the tournament.
Generally speaking, vs aggro and control is always an open match, and that's enough for me. But I don't want to have matchups where is impossible to win.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Welcome and congrats LeoCop! Quit apologizing for your English. It's much better than my Italian

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).

[ScatmanX]

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).

Proud to say I proved that wrong 5 times in my lifetime already =]

[Ace/Homebrew]

Proud to say I proved that wrong 5 times in my lifetime already =]

Well let's say you're the exception and not the rule

[Sasan]

I wanted to say that I will test Confusion in the ranks against RiP combo this Friday and give you the results.
Thanks to Scatman for pointing out this great opportunity ;)

Furthermore I will test RiP vs Leyline vs Relic against Dredge, Reanimator and Canadian :)

[GoboLord]

Well let's say you're the exception and not the rule

Oh, that reminds me:

From Dutch Legacy Masters 2011

R2: Sneak Show (2-1)
Game 3: It started becoming exciting. My opponent kep his 7 while I had to mull down to 5 (both hands weren’t able to produce any mana). My 5 cards were: Lackey, Piledriver, SGC (yes! Turn-3-kill!!!!), Matron (yes! Show and Tell helps me find a Stingscourger!), and Wort Boggart Auntie. Hmm, 0 lands again. I decided to keep this hand because of Matron and Lackey (and because 4 cards would most likely mean that I lose anyway). Now guess what I draw on the following 2 turns : Lands!!.
Turn1: Mountain, Lackey, Go.
Turn2: Lackey connects into SGC. Badlands, Piledriver, Go (19 dmg next turn)
Turn3: (my opp had Engineered Explosives for my Tokens). Lackey connects into a Ringleader. Ringleader reveals 3(!) Lackeys. I play 3 Lackey, Go.
My opponent drops a Sphinx of the Steel Wind via Show and Tell, while my Matron tutors a Stingscourger (to be able to deal with other fatties as well).
Luckily my Piledriver has Protection from Sphinxes and my SGC can sacrifice the blocked creature to dodge Lifelink. Good Game!

Oh, sweet memories....

Apart from that I agree with Ace: Although I think that Goblins is the most mulligan-resitant deck in legacy (= the deck that can take mulligan to 5 without any regrets), mulligan to 4 will mean that your opponent will have a very realistic chance on winning.

@ Leo:
Your English is fine! What's important is not that you make correct use of grammar & spelling, but that you make your points clear. The fact that you take your time to write such extended replies make your postings understandable, and that's all that counts.

@ Sasan:
Looking forward to read your results.

[orcanmail]

Combo will often win before you drop your Thalia.

Why either thorns or thalia need to be backed up by 4 chalice of the void in SB